Thank you all so much for your advice! It is really helpful.

Owning a border collie is really challenging. She gets an hour walk every day, plus about four hours every night of "baseball" (a game she invented in which she puts a bone in her mouth and uses it to push a ball to us, which we then kick for her), and still has plenty of energy for obedience and agility training.

One more question--I walk her on a street where there are several aggressive dogs who are, fortunately, always behind a fence. The lunge and bark at us as we walk by--should I avoid that street or use it to teach her not to react? I wonder if seeing dogs being aggressive only makes her aggression worse.

Again, thank you so much! I am so relieved that you think that it isn't too late for her.

In herding most dogs learn to ignore the other dog. Usually it is not a problem as thier drive to work the sheep is very high and that is thier only interest.

Walking your dog down that street is not helping it, so if it was me, I would choose another route at this point. Especially with how young your dog is. It would be nice if you could introduce your dog to other pups/dogs that are freindly, so she learns good things as well.

I have read the post by J Parker and Sandor and find they make a lot of sense.

The BC is bred with a herding instinct. If the sheep does not move then the dog will "nip" them to make them comply. The same happens when they herd chickens and children.

Although i have never become involved with herding I know a little about BC's. They are not family dogs - they are working dogs. If you cannot make the time to give them an outlet for vast amounts of energy - preferably in a training environment then do not own one.

They can be controlled through herding or agility, or obedience or jumping or flyball but they do need an outlet.

The "snapping" is inherent in the breed. Either you live with it and "watch the dog at all times" or you literally make them exhausted from work or you do not have this breed.

I see some posts are suggesting that this trait is a genetic fault. Far from it.

The main (sole) problem here is that the BC is being acquired for the wrong reason by a handler (family) that knows no better.

Once again, this breed does not make a good family dog unless you are a very experienced handler.

These dogs are working dogs in the very purest sense. If you have neither the time nor the inclination to work them, then do not acquire them.

A classic case of choosing a dog because it is pretty.

Fantastic dogs. Highly intelligent and just about unbeatable for speed with lack of faults but they are working dogs - not house dogs.

Regards,

Geoff.

Geoff, I hear you, but understand that the popularity of this breed has led to an increase in their numbers in animal shelters here in the US, resulting in a lot of them being adopted as family pets by people who have no clue what they are in for. You see a lot of Border Collies and Border Collie mixes up for adoption these days. That's how I got mine. She's a BC mix, about 32 pounds. Some of her best qualities are her intelligence and her gracefulness, and her soundness of structure. I really wish I would have made a SAR dog out of her, but she's too old now.
She's beautiful to watch when she runs and leaps. She has some less than enjoyable qualities, that I have a feeling would be less of a problem if she were a farm dog. But overall, she has made a wonderful house dog in the five years that I have had her. No, I wouldn't recommend this type to everyone, and I probably won't get another BC or BC mix in the future. The less than stellar qualities are just too frustrating for me. But this dog has been a good little dog, and I'm really glad to have her!

Well actually Geoff many border collie actually 'move' sheep with their eye and this is thier 'intimidation' and intensity. With some this can also be a problem as they become much too 'sticky'. (the only other breed you will usually see this in is the kelpie).

The border collie is bred with prey instinct (which I am assuming you are calling herding instinct). Border collies do not necessarily nip to get the sheep to move (as mentioned above) they use thier 'eye' in many cases. Different breeds have been bred with different characteristics. The rough collie will often use it voice (thus they can be a 'barky' breed and this is often why you see many of them debarked) to move sheep.

Border collies are no different than any other breed in that there are good ones, not so good ones, poor nerved ones, good nerved ones etc etc.

Generally speaking dogs will often do one of 2 different things when they hit the 'pressure' point working sheep. Either they give to pressure or they go into pressure. Dogs that go into pressure are the ones that go in and nip when they are uncomfortable etc. Dogs that give to pressure, will back off and give more distance to what is making them uncomfortable.

I do agree that this breed and 'ours...gsd'(and many other working breeds) needs a working outlet. It is not necessarily about physical energy as it is mental. The dogs need to be worked and challenged mentally as well as somewhat physically. Herding is mentally exhausting for dogs!

In my opinion snapping is not inheritant to the breed. Snapping is much, much different that a good and justified grip. Dogs who snap on sheep (often indicating poor nerves)will do more damage than the dog who goes in and takes a good grip and lets go. Now, a lot really depends on what you meant by snapping. I have seen more damage done to sheep by border collies than any other breed. Amazing isn't it. Prey drive is crucial to a herding dog but so is biddability. I have also seen dogs (thus far a few gsd's and a few rotti's) whos prey drive mixed with low biddability (here I am referring to the dog who will work as a team) make them very poor prospects for herding.

When one is looking for a herding dog, you want (amoung other things) very good prey drive, good nerves, a biddable dog and one who will take a full good grip and lets go. Not a dog who takes cheap shots, snaps, hangs on, and tears sheep.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Shandar:

"Border collies are no different than any other breed in that there are good ones, not so good ones, poor nerved ones, good nerved ones etc etc."

I agree. Good point, good post.

Hi Guys,

There is not a lot more to be said on this subject that will take us much further down the road but having said that I would like to make the following points.

We have a voluntary and non-profit organisation here, Border Collie Rescue, to cater for abandoned BC's.

I take J Parker's point re the popularity of the breed. We have the same problem, hence the need for BC Rescue.

This list, and others like it, attract subscribers who are "into dogs" so I know that I'm preaching to the converted. One hopes that somebody still learns something. More importantly, that something learned may well be passed on to others who are not so knowledgable.

I read many posts and wonder why that particular individual has chosen that particular breed of dog knowing nothing about the breed, and more worrying, knowing little or nothing of the psychological make up of canis familiaris generally.

Shandar makes the point that ALL breeds have good, bad and indifferent. Quite correct, however, understanding the variables between genetic and environmental conditioning can make an enormous difference to the way a dog turns out.

There are some breeds that are not suitable as house dogs for Mr or Mrs Average whereas that breed may well be an ideal house dog for an experienced handler.

It is my contention that owning a dog should be treated in the same manner as driving a car. The "driver" should be compelled to take a "driving test" and pass that test to a basic standard.

Upgrading from a car (miniature poodle) to a truck (rotti) would need a different licence.

OK, it's not going to happen so let's be realistic.

I notice that some of the more experienced handlers give advice to others using terms that are way over the heads of most people who are asking the question. Then there are others who relate an experience that they have encountered that is unique to them and may, or may not, have any bearing on the issue in question. The end result being that the person who asked the original question has so many diverse opinions that he/she may well be more confused than when they started.

A fundamental answer to 99% of these questions is: "Take yourself and your dog to a dog training school".

If this course of action were recommended, then the query would emanate from at least a basic understanding and hopefully the answers given would be received with a basic understanding.

To illustrate the point. Shandar, who it appears knows something about herding, responds to my post in what appears to be a personal challenge.

If I assume Shandar is knowledgable on the subject then I can assume his response is knowledgable. But the response has no bearing on the question originally asked. It may have content that is useful to somebody interested in taking up herding but I fail to see how it answers the dog aggression issue.

And just to set the record straight for anybody who does not know, and who may believe inherently the points made by Shandar:

The herding instinct/attribute possessed by the herding breeds is not "prey instinct".

Without getting technical and completely off the original concept, prey instinct is a hunting/feeding drive. The herding instinct is anything but. (If anyone would like to challenge this statement please drop me an e-mail. I shall be happy to discuss the issues).

All breeds of dog have prey drive to a greater or lesser degree but how many of those breeds are capable of herding.

Certainly herding instinct could be called a "second cousin", but they are certainly not the same thing.

Now I would like to address the semantics between the terms "nip" and "snap".

At no time did I mention the dog "savaging". The BC will snap (or if you prefer, nip) the hock to move a recalcitrant sheep. Herding dogs do not nip having gone into pressure and being uncomfortable nor do they back off and give more distance because they are uncomfortable.

The sheep must move and be herded to a given point. If the dog fails to "intimidate" the sheep into compliance then the nip/snap does the job.

And the fact that Shandar has seen more damage done to sheep by BC's is hardly surprising. No other breed is involved with this work to the extent that BC's are. That's a bit like saying there are more vehicle accidents in New York than there are in the Alaskan interior!

The fact remains that BC's snap/nip naturally. And they can and do this with people, especially children. On the other hand I personally have never heard of an incident of a BC "savaging" anybody.

I do not recommend this breed as a housedog unless the owner/handler is experienced.

And to balance things out I would make the same reservation (for similar but different reasons) regarding the Dalmatian.

Now what I would like to see from the experienced and proficient people is a small, well written and incisive article on any dog subject you like. Something we can all learn from.

Best regards,

Geoff.

Geoff,

Good post. The only thing I will say though, is that I think its many times inevitable for threads to end up this way. Yes, a basic question is asked and if you notice, the first few posts usually address the question fairly specifically. Then what happens is a tid bit of opinion(much of it well-educated!) starts to mix into what is pretty much known as fact and thats when these discussions become very interesting. I don't see Shandars post as a personal challenge. I see both of you expressing very interesting views on the subject. I don't have as much of an understanding on the subject of herding as it appears the two of you have, and I am really enjoying the debate. One other point is that I don't recall too many(if any) people on this board reccommending someone take an un-trained dog to obedience school. Maybe you were just using that as a hypothetical response to a question. If so, my misunderstanding. Anyway, I have enjoyed reading you and Shandar's discussion. Sorry all for veering off topic! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I actually did think that I responded to the original question about this particular border collie throughout my posts. In my experience with this breed , a training school can help your relationship with your dog and with other people but I personally would not trust it with small children. Now, again...that is based on information posted here and not seeing the dog in person. You can only get so much from 'words' about the experience.

I also continued to talk about some other things that workingdog brought up. Geoff says " The BC is bred with a herding instinct. If the sheep does not move then the dog will "nip" them to make them comply. The same happens when they herd chickens and children."

Now, perhaps I interpreted his intention wrong, but it sounded to me like he was justifying what this border collie did. The behaviour that this border collie presented to the children in the store was not herding instinct. Prey instinct maybe...herding no. IF the dog had snapped at the children's heels while walking , then yes, one might conclude this is part of the genetic makeup of the 'herding' dog but this particular dog went for the face of the children as they went to pet her.

One of the fist things one will notice in the 'herding world' is that language is not necesarily consistent. What one may call prey instinct, another will call herding instinct. But, there is a difference.

Herding 'istinct' is an expression of the prey instinct. Without prey drive you do not have a good herding dog. Now, I would also go a step further and say , without instinct you do not have a "great" herding dog but you can take a dog with prey drive and no herding instinct and 'train' it to herd. In reality for a good herding dog prey and herding instinct are intertwined.
THere are also several other drives one would look for in a good herding dog. Ellen refers to them on her website as 'total attraction to sheep' and 'genetic obedience'. (others people in herding may use other words to describe simular traits). As Ellen states, "Total attraction to the sheep" is a specific and focused aspect of the prey instinct. It is an intense, almost obsessive, form of the prey drive, which is expressed by behaviors to possess and control sheep to the exclusion of all other prey objects. "

"Genetic obedience" is an aspect of the pack drive, which is the social part of the prey instinct. It is expressed as a strong willingness to please the shepherd and to accept the shepherd as the leader. "Genetic obedience" is the breaking and steering mechanism the experienced shepherd uses to "direct" the high drive and natural behaviors the dog brings to herding out of the prey instinct. "

My 'guess' here is that Geoff and I would likely agree on more about herding and instinct than disagree and are just using different words to describe something, but without knowing him and his experiences personally, that is a guess.

And you are right Geoff, most breeds of dogs have prey drive and you might be surprised at how many are capable of herding. However, many of them would not be useful in a 'practical' sense as they do not have the 'instinct' to do the work without the shepherd continually telling them what to do. You might aslo be surprised at how many breeds do have 'roots' in herding. ( It wasn't all that long ago that the gsd was in the working group and not the herding group.)

Geoff states "Herding dogs do not nip having gone into pressure and being uncomfortable nor do they back off and give more distance because they are uncomfortable." Sorry Geoff you are wrong. THey do both of those. I could go into great detail explaining it but if one does not have expereience working dogs in herding it might not make a difference.

Let me also qualify my statement " And the fact that Shandar has seen more damage done to sheep by BC's is hardly surprising. No other breed is involved with this work to the extent that BC's are. That's a bit like saying there are more vehicle accidents in New York than there are in the Alaskan interior!"

Actually that statement comes from my own personal expereience. Having been involved in all breed herding for many years , and involved in many herding 'instinct' tests, I have seen more upright (any breed that does not crouch when herding) breeds herding than the average person. So, in reality I have actually seen more 'all breed' dogs do herding than the border collie. THe reason I have seen what border collies have done to sheep is that I train with them. The average person as a spectator will never see this behaviour and most border collie handlers would never bring out and trial a dog that did this. They wait until they are trained. Perhaps I am a 'tad' sensitive to the subject as many border collie people do not allow any other breed of dog on their sheep for fear of them hurting them. WHen in reality, thier dogs have done lots of damage. THe fear from my expereince is more about the people or trainers not being or knowing anything about other breeds and therefore not trusting themselves in working with the dog.

Geoff states "The fact remains that BC's snap/nip naturally. And they can and do this with people, especially children. On the other hand I personally have never heard of an incident of a BC "savaging" anybody."

Again, this can be a very true statement depending on how the behaviour is exibited. In this particular incident, I don't think it was justified or natural.

I do not consider myself an 'expert' on herding and I do beleive that we can always learn! I do have my own sheep, my dogs work them daily. I train my dogs in both the more 'traditional' border collie style of herding and I also work and train my dogs in the style of herding that this breed was bred for (tending). I bred , trained, and own the only advanced multi titled No 1 herding gsd in Canada (who has numerous High in Trials and has consistenly placed in the top 4 placements). I am extremely proud to say that she has beaten border collies in competition as we worked very hard to achieve that status. She has taught me a lot about the subject of herding and has been a pleasure to own , work and trial.

Shandar,

Liked your last post, very good.

You certainly have more hands-on experience with herding than I. I'm certainly not qualified to argue any "practical" points with you.

The point I was attempting to make was that, generally speaking, the BC has a tendency to nip.

Much like horses. The general propensity for a horse is to kick but some of them have learned (or have a genetic predisposition) to bite.

Or the ostrich. Most birds will use their beaks for defence or aggression but the ostrich kicks and they do so viciously and dangerously.

I think the BC is a wonderful dog. Intelligent, quick and (the term was used) biddable. Certainly he has an unquenchable desire to please.

For a good match you need a handler who is aware of these traits - what a combination.

Unfortunately for every BC that goes to this type of home you get 50 others (that's a complete thumbsuck) that end up neglected or abandoned.

My original point: I really don't believe that this breed makes a good house dog for the average home owner. I say this because of their energy levels, their intelligence (which needs to be nurtured), the destructive behaviour brought about by boredom and frustration and their propensity, as a breed, to snap.

I mentioned previously that I would enjoy reading well written articles on dog subjects.

Perhaps you would consider writing something for us on the "differences" between the BC and other breeds.

What comes immediately to mind is how most dogs are content to "lie around" all day whereas this situation brings on frustration in the BC.

Their lack of "kill instinct" in the prey drive which makes them useless for deployment as a police patrol dog.

Their unbelievably high retrieve drives. I've never heard of, let alone seen, the "forced retrieve" being applied to a BC.

If you are interested I shall look forward to reading such an article.

May you continue to excel with your dogs. May 2002 bring you more accolades and success.

Regards,

Geoff.