Quote: Jeffrey Hill

Will more than likely just get the two of those dvds, no reason not see what they both have to say, and its been years since I have seen/used a marker system.

Excellent choice!

They go together. That is, they were made to be a set.

You won't be sorry. You'll watch them both more than once.

Jeffrey,

You have made a really good choice by slowing down and going back to concentrating on the basics. Marker training is a WONDERFUL way to train your dog, and once you get the DVDs (read the free ebook on this site in the mean time... over and over) you'll be ready to begin again at square one.

If you can find another cheap crate on Craigslist/garage sale, that would give you another tool to use downstairs while training door manners. Prior to training "guests coming in" you can be working on fun crate games so that by the time you are ready to introduce doorbells/people, this pup will happily run into her downstairs crate while you great guests.

The old saying "you have to walk before you can run" really is appropriate. I'd recommend not putting this dog in any situation which throws her into a tizzy or brings up non-compliance until you have the basics firmly established.

Like Connie, I have to say the DD collar is not appropriate for this situation, and I have a feeling Mr. Frawley would support your decision to begin with marker training as well.

Ecollars have their place...this is not one of them and I'm really glad you were realizing this on your own.

We will stick to the flat collar then, just keep the DD in the drawer and maybe somebody else will need it.

Hopefully it won't take too long for the dvds to get here, in the meantime we will be doing simple exercises:sit, platz, here, place...things she already knows, but re-training with the marker "yes" then treat, good for continue what you are doing, and "nope" to let her know we are starting the exercise over again. Hopefully this should suffice with giver her something to work for until I can get some more guidance from the DVDs

Why do you think a DD collar is needed?

I read your first post with horror. I am so glad you are going to stop using that ecollar. It sounds like your dog has been tortured.

I am living with and training (and being trained by) a reactive, highly-sensitive, and very strong shepherd cross. I absolutely cannot use a flat collar on him, I should say, there is no way I could use a flat collar with him when he was constantly going into states of high arousal and fixation. What changed the tide for me was the prong collar. And yes, I couple it with a dominant dog collar, but it is for insurance, the correction is coming from the prong collar, not the DD. In fact, I mis-sized mine, so it is a little on the loose side and it is working perfectly as a back up (never had the prong fail yet).

I have found Jethro's least effective training method is corrections. He just doesn't do well with them. It turns out he does really well with structure and supervision. That is, he loves getting directions and doing them well and seeing that his efforts have pleased me (and get him a treat or a game of tug). It's funny, but Jethro's shift from fixation and reactivity has been all about us bonding, and me becoming more interesting than any dogs or people, or cats, or what have you, out in the world.

Please, please, please start 'reading' your dog and giving her some credit. She is intelligent, and she wants to please. She doesn't need to be shocked into compliance. She needs to be gentled, calmed, and she definitely will need to rebuild her trust in your handling.

Ed has a great podcast on using treats, and a wonderful podcast on corrections. I highly recommend all the podcasts. If you start over, with building pack structure, it will give both of you a chance to build a new relationship based on building your bond and gentle, gentle corrections.

I thought Jethro was a hard dog because I could pull my shoulder out of my socket giving him a leash correction and he would barely notice. The fact is that his brain was fixated and he needed psychological help to break it's grip, and then not get fixated in the first place.

First you will "load your marker". This means simply saying your chosen word (many of us use yes) and giving the dog a treat. Do this numerous times. You are simply teaching her that the word means goodies.

Then "are you ready??" lets her know you are going to be starting to have some fun. When I get the treat bag out of the fridge and say "are you ready?" I've got a pair of excited, happy eyes watching my every move.

Good is used once they understand the basics to extend the length of the command. You wouldn't use it immediately on a new behavior. The initial goal is to reward the dog immediately for offering any part of the behavior.

Nope is used to let her know that the behavior she offered is not what you were looking for. Always given in a happy, upbeat voice - nothing negative. (You are trying to train your dog to THINK about what you are asking). It doesn't necessarily mean you are starting over but just letting her know that what she just did wasn't what you were looking for. However, DO NOT overuse it early on - she is going to just be learning this new system, and so are you. You won't want her nipping you every time your timing is off...

You ALWAYS end on a happy note, even if the new behavior didn't go as planned - you revert to a known behavior and end the training session with the dog feeling rewarded and happy.

You end the session with an "all done" (or similar) to let them know the training session is over. With that said, there is nothing wrong with keeping treats in your pocket at ALL times so when you catch her doing something right or you ask for a behavior out of a "training session" you can mark and reward at that moment.

Numerous, short training sessions per day work far better than a long, drawn out "class".

Have you found the free ebook or would you like me to post the link?

Lots of good advice here, but just wanted to add I know you said you don't like the prong collar, what are your reasons? I know they can look scary, but I think mis-using the E collar the way you were, is far worse than anything a prong can do. I actually think prongs are the most humane, even over a regular choke chain.
Prongs can only tighten so much, it applies an even correction around the neck and you need a much smaller correction for it to work usually. Also, I have tested it out myself, on my thigh. I wanted to know what I was doing to my dog, so I put a choke chain on my thigh and did a good size correction. OUCH! and it left a nice bruise in one spot. It does not apply the correction evenly at all. Then I did it with the prong, on bare skin, and it wasn't anything painful. Not comfortable but it didn't hurt and it didn't leave any bruising, probably because the correction is evenly distributed.

Maybe you should check it out for yourself, or do some reading. I always grew up thinking it was cruel and choke chains were the way to go. Thank god I always research everything to death now.

Also wanted to ask, isn't that age of a puppy way to young for an E collar? I didn't even really give physical corrections until recently and Capone just turned one. We are just starting to use corrections with OB. Although, I would imagine, with all his issues we are further behind than others his age on this board.

I don't like the prong because I have seen too many of them break, won't really be an issue for us at the moment as we won't be around other dogs and stuff for a good while, but I don't want her used to something I am not going to be using long term.

She started the collar at 5 months if I remember right, low stim for commands, and only for commands she had already learned with just treats, and High stim for teaching her to leave things alone, like the little dog and the cars

Prong collars do sometimes fall off. By connecting the dd collar with the prong if it does fail the dd colar will still be on the dog,like a back up collar. Have been doing this with a grey hound collar on my foster dog.

A couple sessions of retrieve out in my back yard before going for a walk or training can burn of excess energy and help the dog to focus better. Walks are more enjoyable too,with less puling.

I need to look up how these guys are suggesting to connect the Prong collar to the regular collar and leash. I just cannot conceptualize it for some reason.

Do you keep the prong collar tight, and under the jaw and behind the ear like they display it on the leerburg site? It makes sense to me to keep it that way, I just have never seen another person do their dog like that.