Quote: jenny arntzen

And please, I need more than leash corrections . Jethro doesn't read leash corrections as leadership. He sees them more as an annoying mosquito preventing him from pursuing that powerful scent. I'm getting much faster at stepping on the leash because that actually puts the brakes on in a no-nonsense way.

 Quote: debby meder

I also purchsed the Dominate Dog Collar from Leerburg. It is a MAGIC collar, trust me. It only took a couple of corrections for lunging and Tasha got the picture...not that she will not slip up and not ever make a mistake again but she knows that it is an easy choice for her to make if she lunges..having her air cut off with the collar or praise and jackpot treats for making a "good choice" not to lunge. Any fool would know what to choose and your Jethro is much smarter than any fool. I strongly recommend the dominate dog collar if you do not already have one.

I Believe the Prong Collar, with Dominant Dog Collar Used In conjuction, as illistrated by Ed Fawley, in the purchase collar section of this website, are the correct training collar combination to use; as using dominant collar as back up for prong.

The Prong is a "self correction", when the dog pulls on Prong collar, he corrects himself;
with non pulling vs pulling on Prong, rather than "choking" dog off, the Dominant Collar is used as back up if Prong comes apart.

There is alot of good info on the dominant dog tape, but think most, if not all of the problems described on this thread would benefit from pack Sturcture, clear message of right & wrong; & use of proper training collar, being prong, especially for large dog with lighter, less body weight, handler!

"depression and suppressed rage"
Jeez, I know all about that!
Say out loud 10 times per day: "THIS PUP IS NOT THE ADOLESCENT SON...not the adolescent son.....

Connie - you are right. Pushy, demaning, manipluative dogs do not equal dominate dogs and these behaviors are failures of taking leadership but IMO they are behaviors that if left unchecked can easly lead to a dominate dog. If I misused the "dominate" terminology I am sorry about that. I did not mean to confuse or imply that the behaviors automatically equal a dominate dog. What I was saying was that I realized after watching both the Pack Structure and Dominate Agressive Dog video that I failed to recognize lack of respect.

As far as using the DD I have used the collar for aggressive lunging because Tasha needed to have a correction for that behavior. Tasha has never displayed handler agression toward me, but she has displayed agression toward other dogs and that is not acceptable. The collar has helped me to resolve the issue and I can assure you that I have read the information carefully and understand the proper use of the collar. Are you saying that the collar was not intended to be used as a correction collar? If so, I am completely confused based on the information provided by Leerburg. In fact, Ed states several times in his video that prefers the DD over the prong collar because the correction can be made quicker and more effective due to the fit of the collar. So I am confused about your concern that it is used for corrections.

Also wanted to add,
think it was a Michael Ellis short video included with a past Leerburg newsletter, where Michael stated that there are in truth Very Few Real Dominate dogs;
& those that are, Real Dominant Alpha Type Dogs, should be used for breeding! & not so much training?!
As a True Doninant Dog makes a poor candidate for OB, or Training, but could be used to improve breeding lines.

if my memory serves me well!

 Quote: debby meder

Connie - you are right. Pushy, demaning, manipluative dogs do not equal dominate dogs and these behaviors are failures of taking leadership but IMO they are behaviors that if left unchecked can easly lead to a dominate dog. If I misused the "dominate" terminology I am sorry about that. I did not mean to confuse or imply that the behaviors automatically equal a dominate dog. What I was saying was that I realized after watching both the Pack Structure and Dominate Agressive Dog video that I failed to recognize lack of respect.

As far as using the DD I have used the collar for aggressive lunging because Tasha needed to have a correction for that behavior. Tasha has never displayed handler agression toward me, but she has displayed agression toward other dogs and that is not acceptable. The collar has helped me to resolve the issue and I can assure you that I have read the information carefully and understand the proper use of the collar. Are you saying that the collar was not intended to be used as a correction collar? If so, I am completely confused based on the information provided by Leerburg. In fact, Ed states several times in his video that prefers the DD over the prong collar because the correction can be made quicker and more effective due to the fit of the collar. So I am confused about your concern that it is used for corrections.

Well, I don't know how the correction could be quicker, as for a lunging dog, pulling against a Prong collar, the dog is going to correct himself, & not need a correction from you (or, in correlation, a verbal command).

I guess in Training, I would rather use the most correct, in my judgement, Equipment for Training; & I think the dog correcting himself with a prong, vs choking off with a dominant dog collar, I Trained with a Prong, & dominanat dog collar for backup.

Now Trained, I don't use either above collar;
but do use an e-collar for off leash walking.

In Theory of Corrections article Ed explains in detail when and how to use corrections and the part about Prong Collars vs Choke Collars might be particularly relevant to this discussion.

Before the thread goes way off the track into true dominance-aggression, this is the behavior spectrum the O.P. describes (not a list that would make me jump to getting a DD collar) :

Dominant behaviours inventory (my admittedly inexperienced interpretations): on leash barking and lunging at passing dogs (whether they are on or off leash); barking and lunging at scents on the ground around our corner; barking and lunging at any movement as we approach our corner at the end of our walk, definitely worse at dusk and in the dark of night; barking and lunging at the windows when dogs pass by the house day or night (the sound of jingling tags, other sounds that we can't hear, he can't see, but he senses none the less from inside the house); barking and lunging at puppies (on or off leash); there are a couple dogs in our neighbourhood (Rusty and Chango) that Jethro goes medieval on, no matter how close they are - if he picks up their scent he goes into a barking, lunging frenzy; barking and lunging at Hank, the intact Staffy in obedience class; mouthing and nose bumping me when we are getting ready to go out on a walk; constant pushiness at the door unless he is following obedience instructions (always needing obedience commands to get him to wait so I can go out first; barking and lunging at passerby from the front porch; barking and lunging when we are out on the field if another dog enters the field (even if we are at the far end); barking and lunging at dogs on leash (or not) passing the field on the other side of the fence; jumping up on my husband; whining at my husband; mouthing my husband... I just want to add, this constant feeling of being pushed, and having to stand my ground.

None of this rises to the level of "dominance aggression" that for me calls for a DD collar.

For me, desensitizing and basic ob and leadership are what's called for.

Good questions, Connie. No, Jethro has never bitten, and certainly never killed anything. He will let it go if we are at a distance, and I am working with desensitizing to help him reduce his reactive zone. He doesn't react to all dogs all the time. He is selective : 0 which makes it a little harder to judge what to do, when. I err on the side of caution but some things still slip by, because I have misjudged the distance or Jethro's demeanor. I did watch the pack structure video and have been working on implementing the ground work - Jethro spent months in his crate last fall and winter, about a month or so ago I started letting him have a little more time outside the crate, in the house.

I think I let that go too far. For instance, today he started whining at me when I had him in a Down while I folded laundry. Instead of struggling with him, I took him to his crate and 'put him away' so I could have a mental break. Lo and behold, he is sound asleep and I have had a chance to meditate and eat my lunch in peace.

I have a prong collar and I use it part of the time with an oversize DD backup. I've tried the DD alone, but even properly sized it slipped down and ended up being a cord choke collar and was not useful at all. I have a really hard time getting collars to stay up behind Jethro's jaw.

I think the consistent leadership comment is right on. I have done a lot of reading, participated on various discussion forums, and watched videos. We worked with a behaviourist last fall when Jethro turned 6 months and this reactive ass-hattedness caught us off guard.

I'm finding increasing the ob outside is giving Jethro something to do that he enjoys and keeps him out of mischief. It always surprises me when I have both dogs out in the neighbourhood and people comment on how well behaved they are. If only they knew!

My most common feeling is that my dogs would really benefit if I had 5 more years of experience under my belt.

I'm pretty athletic, and not a lightweight - about 145 lb. to Jethro's 80+, so I can use my weight to my advantage (finally!). I'm not afraid of Jethro's reactivity anymore, but I do get discouraged with my own handling errors (which doesn't help Jethro or me!).

It does clarify for me that I am dealing with a reactive dog and to stay the course. I took a prong out of his collar to make it fit more tightly, I might take out one more and err on the side of too tight than too loose. Its not slipping down as much now.

I think my biggest challenge is the grey areas of transitions. When he isn't in a close Heel but we are walking along with a loose leash, when we are playing in the park and something distracts him, when we are in the house and he gives a low growl at a noise on the street, but not a huge reaction. I'm not always sure what my response should be.

I found Ed's theory of corrections really helpful, and then his comment that a good firm correction is worth a 1,000 nagging ones. I think I have been nagging and not sending enough of a message.