LSwanston,

I agree. I wouldn't take this dog out in public now either. But if the goal is to be able to do this, the dog needs to be muzzled.

I agree. Not only that, but having had him for only 2.5 months, as110 has not had enough time to form the kind of bond with the dog where he has learned to look to her for guidance, especially since she has been trying to socialize him by forcing human contact, while on leash, upon a dog who has been up until recently unaccustomed to both human contact and leash confinement. He probably does not trust her to handle these situations, and feels that he needs to handle them himself. If this were me, I would stop this type of "socialization" immediately, and simply walk the dog and practice on leash obedience in areas where there are people going about their business just to get him used to a) being confined on a leash, and b) accustomed to the presence of human beings, and c) to understand that I am the decision maker, and that he should look to me for guidance. Only after I have formed that kind of bond with him would I attempt to teach him to accept the direct attention of strangers.

Most people will not run across a busy grocery store parking lot or ballfield to pet your doggy when you are walking with purpose and minding your own business. It's usually only when you're in close proximity to people that they will want to pet your dog, so avoiding taking the dog places like Petsmart or your kid's little league game would be prudent at this time....

Basically, it's all too much too soon.

These types of dogs need strong obedience training. I am from the school of thought that these dogs need to think "if I snap...I will face the rath of my owner". I would accomplish this with a prong collar an a level 10,000 correction(Slight exaggeration here to make a point <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

I know there is a legion of people on this board who would take me to task on this....either they are just better trainers then me or they are from the kissy poo school of dog training. Probably the first of the two(shallow attempt at humility!LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ). But most definately, these types of un-predictable dogs need to be muzzled in public. If I couldn't get the dog under control my way I would either give the dog to a better trainer(not hard to find...humility again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) or I'd put the dog down before someone gets bit and I get my ass sued.

PS...Before I get yelled at, I'm not saying put these dogs down. Only as an absolute last resort after working with them has failed. But please take the proper steps in the mean time to prevent a dog bite.

Chuck,
I'm all for strong obedience for any dog. But, I feel that putting a dog into a situation that he is not ready for is setting him up for failure. Using fear conditioning does not solve the root cause of the problem. This is the same thing as giving a dog who doesn't know what "sit" means a hard correction for not sitting.

This is not "kissy poo" training, nor would I imply that I am a better trainer than you. I just don't agree that prong collar corrections should be the first step in dealing with *this particular dog*.

Yes, obedience train him. Yes, use a prong collar. Yes, avoid putting him in situations that set him up for failure. Yes, take your time and establish a proper dog-handler bond. And, for now, muzzling him in public is a good measure to take in order to protect the public. It might have the pleasant side effect of keeping people away. But for heaven's sake, why set him up to fail? What good does this accomplish? How does this improve the dog-handler bond?

I just wanted to "bump" this thread, and to bring up a couple more points.

Another thing to consider when thinking about prong corrections on a dog who issues a warning, is what happens when the dog learns not to warn (growl or snap), but the root causes of the behavior have not been modified? Does it not seem likely that he will bite WITHOUT warning? In effect, a fear biter has been created by punishing (a level 10,000 correction as a response to a behavior is punishment) him whenever he gives a warning.

Also, up until recently, this dog has been running with a pack, making his own decisions. Now, all of a sudden, he is expected to simply accept leash confinement and direct attention from complete strangers? Like I said, it's setting him up to fail.

Lastly, why is there a warning label on prong collars that says "Do not use on aggressive dogs."?

In my opinion, this is a classic case of over-thinking a dog behavior issue. To me its more black and white....no grey area. While we are spending time trying to figure out the root problem and modify this and modify that the dog may have bitten 3 people already. With un-predictable aggressive dogs like this to me it's clear.....show aggression, face the music, or put the dog down. There are plenty of dogs that are workable that are much more worth the time to spend on. Not trying to sound like a smart ass...just my opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Chuck,
I will agree with you here, not because I think L.'s thinking is not corect, because it is, but because like you, (I think) I have no time, or want for "Fix the Dog" therapy. There are like a million dogs out there that have controlable good temperment, why not just save yourself some huge stress and get one of thoes?
If it means putting the dog down for saftey and libility reasons, so be it.

OK....who's next...I'm feeling fiesty today!!!!LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I understand all the modify the beahavior and the root cause stuff, but my question is this...while your in the proccess of trying to determine all of these things how do you react when the dog shows aggression? Sure, try not to put the dog in a situation where this will happen. Is that always feasible though?

I'm old school on this subject. I don't mean to sound harsh. I try to simplify things as much as possible that's all. I guess I'm not the best person to work with an aggressive dog.....my patience would run thin. I've admitted this many times before. That's why if anyone pays attention to my posts, I always say that I'd give the dog over to a better trainer who may be more willing to try other things and if such a person did not exist I'd put the dog down. I fight battles I know I can and will win. Their are better fish to fry.

Good god people, I am glad Euthanasia isn't legal for humans... I would have been put down LONG ago.

The original post was about a dog that was overtired making a warning snap, not true blue aggression. Hell, I snap a people all the time.

Most all "agressive" dogs aren't. If I had a dollar for all the dogs that are "aggressive" with a previous owner (who was also afraid) that were perfectly fine in a new environment I would be well off.

While I agree it is a waste to spend lots of time and money on TRUE AGGRESSION cases, I just don't feel this is one of them.

Deanna,
The dog I'm referring to in this case is the second dog in this thread. This is the dog who was allowed to run free in a dog pack, with minimal exposure to strangers, who is now in a presumably urban environment and confined to a leash. He has not formed an appropriate bond with his handler, where he would trust her to make the decisions and look to her for guidance.

Chuck, I respect your point of view. You are right, there are too many "good" dogs out there in need of rescuing to put too much energy into "fixing" these problem dogs. That being said, I don't believe I'm over thinking this one. I think this is quite simple: The dog is in a new situation and doesn't know to turn to the handler for guidance. He is uncomfortable with direct attention from strangers, and is still making his own decision. The root cause *is* important in really making a change in this dog. To correct him for issuing a warning will create an unpredictable fear biter. The dog-handler bond is NOT there. That is a huge part of the problem, and until that is addressed, I do not see the dog changing his tune.

IF this person IS interested in trying with this dog, it's important that they be armed with the best information possible. I don't want to give them information which could end up making things worse when applied. She needs to focus on obedience training first and foremost, not socialization at this time. The dog needs to learn "Hey, working with this human is FUN! I like this! I trust her! I want to please her!".

Stepping off my soap box.....