Wow thanks everyone for the great response!! And thanks Ingrid for pointing me in the right direction.

I sent clever canines an email yesterday asking if they would allow me to use marker training in their programs. They said no. I also noticed that they tend to have more classes per program than other obedience training schools and are therefore much more expensive. I wonder if this is because it takes longer not using markers? It could also be that they just go longer...
She said that they would work on engagement differently with each dog, like for my beagle they would work on playing tracking games to help harness his scent drive.
I would like to go with this company for the reasons of 1) they work extensively on off leash walking (not in the puppy program, in the later one). 2) they focus a lot on "urban safety" which I think is extremely important since I live in a big city. 3) they do classes at different locations, outdoors, around the city. Which I think is great because it helps work on training in different evironments. 4) they teach how to watch other dogs at dog parks to make sure that there are no other irresponsible owners/dogs there.
If only this school would teach those things as well as using the methods I want!! I'm a little torn.

EDIT : I should also mention that I wasn't looking for the obedience classes to start with. Just puppy classes, but eventually I would like to do obedience as well.

"If only this school would teach those things as well as using the methods I want!! I'm a little torn. "

I wouldn't be torn at all. JMO, but my decision on the training protocol would completely 100% outweigh any of the other considerations mentioned. It would be one of the two or three decisions that would most affect my dog's life. It might even be in top position on that list.

Some of the considerations mentioned aren't even in the running for me. Dog parks -- yes, I agree that vigilance about strange dogs and owners is crucial, but that deck is also stacked in my favor by the fact that I completely avoid off-leash dog parks. (You might want to read more about dog parks here.)

Off-leash walking: is this legal in the large urban area where you live? (Or are you thinking about hiking, etc.?)

That's just a side note, though, because regardless, a great recall and a great heel are both parts of basic ob that should be covered in any basic ob program, whether you do it on your own or also get guidance from a class.

"... they do classes at different locations, outdoors, around the city."

I do a Downtown Dog class that is all about this. This isn't something that's limited to a certain school or trainer.

I'm not trying to belittle any of the facets you mention. I agree that I would include them all in my own personal training "program." If some were not covered in a class I liked, I would cover them on my own.

If I were looking for a class, my first elimination step would be to find the marker classes. (They might be called "clicker training" classes.) THEN I would research among them.

Is this new Beagle a puppy or an adult? Will the dog be a companion dog?

I'm asking this because I think we can direct you to some free video clips that will show you a whole world of info, including eBooks and full-length DVDs with which you can tailor your own training program and include any and all aspects you want included. There is a world of FREE as well as purchased (and invaluable) instruction here. I'd want to take a look at marker work in action.

Are you new to dog-training in general? Give us more info.

In other words, you have come to the right place.

I can't imagine doing this with a reactive dog, but maybe with a normal dog it is an okay approach. It just seems artificial, to leave out the most powerful sensory organ the dogs have (scent) to support a human centered logic (you are going to be the most important focus in your dog's environment). That means you are going to be competing for your dog's attention when he is being stimulated by everything in the environment. And you are offering affection? How in the world does that trump the fresh scent of a coyote trail through your front yard?

I could deconstruct the promotional blurb sentence by sentence to discuss the bias in this approach. I wonder what they would do with a dog like Jethro.

 Quote: Jenny Arntzen

I wonder what they would do with a dog like Jethro.

Correct the crap out of him until he shut down, and complied with the command . Then they'd praise him. With no toys or food.


Sounds like lots of fun, huh?!?!? Koenig and I will pass.

I personally find that the journey in training is as important and as fun as the destination so if one does not enjoy the "journey" to a well trained dog, it is not worth it in the end.

Additionally, oftentimes I find that people do not reach their anticipated destination/goal due to frustration and giving up if the training style does not fit their personality, beliefs, or the dog's temperament. Just my meandering thoughts :-)

Hello Amanda, at the risk of sounding supercilious, I would say that their assumption about clicker training is wrong.

When I train my dogs there is Phase I. Which will teach a dog a particular behaviour, such as down. This is when I use the clicker. It just makes the learning process easier, that is all. It has no connection to the dog making a calculated decision that he is going to down because he expects a treat from me at a later stage.

Then there is Phase II. Where we teach the dog that he has to down even if he does not feel like it. When the dog chooses to ignore your command even though he is not distracted. Clicker can be used in this phase, if the dog is not too intransigent to ignore the toy/food reward. If not I will use compulsion, but only as a last resort.

Phase III. is when you teach the dog that he has to obey under severe distraction. Clicker need not be used here and verbal praise or a play with a tug after a few minutes of good behaviour can be used. You need to have built a good working relationship with him by then and he will appreciate your praise.

So clicker is used only to teach the dog new behaviours. Not that you have to carry the clicker/food always with you. You need it only during the learning phases. Phase I and II .


Clicker / marker training is the way to go. With out marker training, it would also be very difficult to teach complex behaviours. I don't know how one would teach tracking, scent matching to sample with out play/food.

I feel that some times there are attempts to set a particular training school apart by some "special" method of training. This may be disingenuous in my opinion.

Clicker/marker is scientific method of training. Most importantly you will unleash your dog's creativity. I don't know if any other method will allow the dog to understand that trying new things can be fun.


Lastly, what do you do when you end up with a dog that does not value handler praise and is of the mind set "what is in it for me?". You have to use severe compulsion followed by praise after compliance. This will make (a) A very distressed dog (b) Fear to try , therefore difficulty to teach new behaviours

Clicker... Clicker ... Clicker is the way to go.


Edited by Ramachandran Subramanian (06/17/2011 12:11 AM)
Edit reason: Added more

They do have a pretty snazzy website: http://www.clevercanines.ca/jumpstart.html

I actually like their real world approach, I can see why you might be a bit torn. I would recommend asking for references from *beagle* owners whose dogs have gone through a training program. More than one- three at least.

A hound is a different dog than a eager to please labrador. Make your decision. Be sure to ask about corrections. I only wish they used marker training.

I have to ask, who isn't training their dog for a real world? That just seems superfluous to me. Also, two hour training sessions? My goodness, Jethro can barely make it through 45 minutes and is severely taxed by the time an hour is up. The second hour would be a waste of time because he would be so squirrely he wouldn't be learning anything. I have become very skeptical of the alpha pack leader thing. What does that mean exactly? How is it communicated to the dog? What does it mean when you are always the pack leader and your dog is always the follower? I like how they list two handouts - like there isn't a wealth of information on these basic OB training procedures out there.

Here is why I attend my classes with Lori, our trainer. She helps me remember to make training fun. She never gets flustered when the dogs are dogs and she helps us figure out how we can help our dogs. She doesn't use clickers, but she is interested in them. She uses treats and motivation, and corrections when they are needed. She helps me have confidence that I am doing the right things with my dogs because she can see our progression over time. She is setting up many alternate activities for us to do with our dogs so we can continue to build our skills and our dogs enjoyment, doing things that dogs love to do: spending time with us and having fun while they are learning.

They require a martingale collar and a six foot leash. If I used a martingale my shoulder would be dislocated.

Anyway, it appears they draw heavily on the Dog Whisperer school, with wolf pack analogies and pack leader stuff.

Its funny, because I have been listening to the John Bradshaw book on my podcast. He makes an important point about the psychology associated with using wolves to understand dogs.

1. Wolves and dogs parted company between 14,000 and 20,000 years ago. Not all wolves were domesticated - it appears the grey wolf was the only wolf that actually evolved into the domestic dogs we have today.

2. Most deductions about wolf behaviour, as applied to dog psychology, was drawn from observing wolves in captivity. Observations of wolves in their natural habitats is a relatively new science. It seems wolves in captivity are actually in distress - they have been torn from their family based packs and thrown into an enclosure where they cannot get away. They have no familial bonds with the other wolves in the enclosure and they have no inherent pack structure to guide them. They exhibit high anxiety, which comes out in excessive submissive behaviour and/or aggression. Wolves in the wild are actually family packs, the leaders of the pack is the mother and father of the pack. The pack is made up of new puppies and adolescent dogs from the previous year. The adolescent dogs stay to help raise the new puppies, either acting as babysitters or helping the adult pair with hunting. There is very little fighting, in fact it is rare. The male and female are the adult pack leaders.

3. Dogs have been domesticated a very long time, they have been evolving in relation to humans. Dogs are unusual because they are capable of bonding with both humans and other dogs.

4. One theory of how dogs came to be domesticated is that there was a genetic anomaly in the grey wolf for a certain period, where they became able to bond with humans. The theory is that baby wolves were first taken as pets, and because they were able to bond with humans, and reproduce in human camps, they became domesticated. Not all wolves had this bonding capability.

5. Humans have been breeding dogs for many thousands of years, at first for functionality, and later for show. The dogs we have today are not under-developed wolves, or juvenile wolves. They are domesticated dogs, and they have their own psychological traits, which have evolved in the company of humans.

6. Surprisingly little is actually known about the domesticated dog, per se, because for so long they have been theorized from the perspective of wolfs trapped in an unnatural habitat.

Okay. I will get off my soapbox now.

I actually have done quite a bit of reading about the domestication of dogs. I learned about it in an anthropology class in uni, and I've also been reading this book called "Inside of a dog" (I think that's the name of the book) which is a non-fiction which basically covers a lot of the scientific research on dogs to date. And after learning about natural wolf pack structure, I also question the dog pack structure theory. They say that your dog will "challenge you" and go for alpha position if it thinks you are weak, but wolves don't do that in nature. I guess in a way though, people should act as the "parents" of the pack, the protectors and rule-makers. So I suppose the "alpha" theory has some soundness.

And I am getting my beagle at 9 weeks of age (he was born yesterday!!), and he will be a companion dog. So initially I would like to do puppy classes, but I would like to find a school that offeres obedience as well as puppy classes. (they usually have deals/packages that gives some discount on multiple classes). And Also I would like to keep a consistent method, so the same company would make that easier.

And I know that all places teach some kind of urban safety, but I'm having a hard time finding places that teach in multiple locations outdoors. This will be my first time training a dog myself (without my family) and so I'm not sure how comfortable I'm going to feel covering things that I would like to cover by myself (without guidance from a person). I mean that books and movies make it look easy, but I'm not sure how I will do when it comes to me and my dog, training by ourselves. But any recommendations for books/dvds are very welcome! I have actually been hunting around leerburgs website for some of the free content and found some great stuff.