Hi Jessica, welcome.

I’m no expert but also have a pack of dogs, of varying breeds and ages, which get along just fine. And by fine, I mean no fights. My shepherd, if given the choice, would love to act on my lead. If one of the other dogs has blatantly broken a rule or pushed his boundaries, he notices what I've noticed and would love nothing more than to administer discipline in a way he saw fit. It’ll never happen.

Should I need to work with or correct another animal in an immediate type situation, I’ve often got to deal with him first. These days, it’s a simple down and I’m off to deal with the issue as he watches where I left him.

IMHO, Chloe sounds like a “pushy” dog, I don’t know that I’d use dominant. She’s trying desperately to fit in and as you’ve stated, it sounds like there’s a leadership opening. A young dog will pick up on this very quickly and try to establish rules the only way they know how.

When you got excited with the horses, it can be in their nature to try and restore calm. Bindi may have reacted to your excitement as well and this is where Chloe felt she knew how to settle her/him. She hasn’t figured out why your energy gets sparked so she’s lashing out in the general vicinity, acting on your lead (energy).

I don’t believe she’s earned the right to run free with your pack. She doesn’t know the rules yet and is filling in that lack of knowledge with inappropriate actions.

If she was coming into my pack, I’d have her off on the sidelines observing my behaved pack members and I interact. If outside (after a ton of energy draining exercise) I may tether her to a nice shady tree and proceed to go about my business - playing with/training my other dogs, feeding the horses, etc. all in her view.

Let her observe and get a feel for the balance of the pack (providing there is calm balance – not just a bunch of bouncing, excited energy when you’re around). When you go to train her, make sure that your other dogs aren’t interfering. I’d be training the basics but putting an emphasis on a calm, long “down”. Once you start getting some reliable, basic obedience on her you can start introducing the other dogs into the mix.

The crate sounds like a great idea for indoors. If she has to be left outside, make sure it’s separated from the other two right now (the small fenced part with the kennel sounds perfect).

And I know you said they get along fine when you’re not in the mix, but when you do come home or step outside, there is a potential for a fight right now. You want to eliminate that completely. It’s just not fair to your other dogs and the more she’s able to practice this behavior the more ingrained it will become.

You really do need to step up your leadership with her right now and sometimes it’s not the most comfortable or convenient way we’d like things to be. But that’s part of being a leader – fair and firm and doing what’s right, even if it does push you out of your comfort zone. You came here to learn and learning often means changing the way “we’ve always done things before”.

 Quote: Jessica Dixon

I realise you don't know me but I am not some fool who just picked her up and decided to play happy families. This forum, while full of wonderful information has more conflict than any other forum I have seen. There is almost a pack mentality amongst the regular members here! We are humans, not dogs. I feel it is VERY easy to get some advice or an opinion across without being belittling.

And speaking of change, if I may… can I suggest that you also tone down your reactive defense to the way people choose to communicate. You’ve come to the internet, a particular site with a wealth of experienced people that are willing to share information and are really trying to help you. Sometimes the written word isn’t always received the way it was intended.

There are rules here and that type of outburst generally isn’t received well, especially when it’s directed at one of its most cherished leaders.

In any case, good luck with your pack. I really do hope you stick around. Your situation can be easily turned around with a little guidance in training, management and leadership.

I think Connie was right. Too bad you're so sensitive. Letting a dog mess with your 2 older dogs is stupid, I would have beat the crap out of the dog right then and there, M.U.G. training. The muzzling is stupid because it creates frustration in the situation you describe, you should know this if you've been around dogs for so many years. You leave a muzzle on the dog all day when you're not there? That's crazy, think about it. Not all dogs can pack up, that's a simple fact. Good luck to your old dogs, they're going to need it.

CJ Barrett: Thank you for your advice and for taking the time to answer my questions. What you have said makes alot of sense and I am really willing to try anything. Just one question, what you said about not letting her interact with the other two for now tying her up and letting her watch etc, Chloe has been with the other two dogs since a young pup does this still apply? Just checking to clarify.

Her being pushy not neccassarily dominant also make sense as that is exactly what she is. I feel she doesnt really think she is dominant over me, but still tries to be pushy etc.

About my 'outburst' reading back now I can see I overreacted however I dont feel I was abusive to anyone. I can admit when I have been wrong and I apologise, I suppose I was being a bit too sensitive as I didnt want to be percieved as a silly dog owner who treats their pets like children etc. I love my dogs, and I do everything I possibly can right by them. I would like to apologise to Connie for my post, I can see that it was an overreaction on my behalf because I misinterpreted what she was saying and it will not happen again, I would like to thank her for taking the time also to reply to my posts.

I really do want help with situation and it is valued.

However, Al Curbow, I will never use the word stupid when talking to someone and I would appreciate the same courtesy. If you read my post properly you would see that I said Chloe is NOT muzzled when unattended, when I am not there she is put in the seperate yard... re read my posts. And while I understand it is not ideal for her it is better than the other dogs being dead. Saying you would have beat the crap out of her then and there pretty much shows you shouldn't really be commenting on this situation, as beating her would not teach her anything other than I am abusive. I do not nor never will beat my dogs.

 Quote: Jessica Dixon

If you read my post properly you would see that I said Chloe is NOT muzzled when unattended, when I am not there she is put in the seperate yard... re read my posts. And while I understand it is not ideal for her it is better than the other dogs being dead.

Hi Jessica,
Excuse me if I missed something, but why isn't the seperate yard ideal? Sounds pretty good to me. Dogs are definitely pack animals but not necessarily with other dogs; perhaps Chloe had little to no interaction with dogs as a young pup and was more attached to people....no matter what you do this will not change and requiring she spend her time with other dogs when she'd prefer not to; IMO serves no purpose.

She definitely needs to behave appropriately in the company of other dogs but I'm not understanding why she needs to pack up with the other dogs; especially when she has an area where she is safe and content.

Now admittedly I like to take the road of least resistance so my response may be colored by that.

And I don't believe 100% compliance to ALL commands ALL the time is attainable or desireable. A thinking companion is much more valuable than a programmed one. JMO.

One last out of the blue thought; Bindi was attacked by the neighbor's dog as well as Chloe. I think CJ made a great observation about a dog's energy. I'd keep an eye on Bindi and make sure nothing is amiss with her. If a dog suddenly becomes the victim of multiple dogs' aggression; there could very likely be something about her which is triggering the response; probably nothing but worth paying attention to. Because you don't have enough on your plate.

That is a scary thought.. which does make sense. She has (Bindi that is) been to the vet, and the vet was happy with her.. she is healing very well from her injuries from being mauled. But that does make sense as I said. I will keep a closer eye on her. She is quite old for her age, she has had a full life with a few mishaps to put it likely (eg being run over by a tractor) As I said in my other thread shes a really gentle dog and doesnt confront other dogs ever so I thought they were taking advantage of that. Maybe another check up in a little while is in order.

Chloe does enjoy the company of the other dogs, she loves to play with them especially Bindi. Chloe would have been five weeks roughly when I found her, she was sitting on a concrete step in my parents stable, and the closest neighbour was 50 acres away. I have no idea where she cam from. She was not weaned I don't think, and tried to suckle from Bindi all the time who took on a mother role to her. The aggression toward the other dogs mainly Bindi started in her teenage years.

Come to think of it, Chloe and Rosie (my other dog) have never really had a serious tiff, there was one fight which started over food, and Chloe did start it, but mainly Chloe doesn't try to stand over Rosie.

She doesn't nessecarily need to pack up with the other dogs, it would just be alot more pleasant, and as I said she does like them.

Just to add I meant the muzzle wasn't ideal, not the yard It may be that I have to Keep Chloe seperate unless under close supervision, but I really would like to see if I can try other options first

Hey Jessica, great to read this side of you. Very conducive to having a good discussion and maybe we’ll (yes you and me) even learn a thing or two along the way.

 Quote: Jessica Dixon

Chloe has been with the other two dogs since a young pup does this still apply?

Absolutely, moreso than ever right now. Something went wrong in the upbringing and you need to go back to square one.

However, as Sheila indicated, often what looks like the problem staring us in the face is not where the issue is rooted at all. It may just be a reaction or symptom of a much bigger or different issue.

It’s really important that your other two are following a strict structured plan as well. You’ve got to observe them and see who’s reacting to what. What’s causing excitement in the other ones? What’s triggering Chloe to attack? When do they feel most comfortable and what does it take to get them to that state?

You may find that a lot of these issues are not being triggered by the dogs, themselves, at all. And that only leaves one common denominator. Then it’s time to take a good look in the mirror. I believe we always get the dogs we need. For a large part, they end up being a reflection of our influence and training.

Just an example, two horses eating, one picking at the others. The last thing I’m going to do is start flailing my hands around. This has the potential to cause hand shyness, scaring them to scatter/bolt, etc. Something I would not do. I’d grab a lead and escort the pestering horse away and know next time that I should separate them when feeding.

That frustrated, angry, flailing energy directed at the horses caused a whole chain reaction of negative energy. What can we do next time to avoid that? That’s the kind of observations, in my own behavior, that I’d be playing close attention to.

And as for Mr. Curbow’s comments (and in no way, would I ever attempt to speak for him or interpret what he chose to post) but I also believe there’s a lot of good information in what he wrote. Simply a different approach.

If you re-read his information, with a little less sensitivity, there is a lot of concern for your two older dogs. These attacks would simply not be permitted to take place and there would be consequences for the offender.

I also don’t agree with the muzzling. It’s a temporary fix to mask a problem. They don’t change behavior. Dogs can still be just as aggressive, simply limiting the ability for teeth to connect to the intended target. If a muzzle is on, I’m in a temporary training/public/medical situation where I know there’s a potential for a safety risk. At home, it’s training and management. Separation where required.

As well, some dogs don’t enjoy the company of a pack as much as others do. There couldn’t be a truer statement. Dogs are as individual as we are. This again, is where our leadership, love for them, what have you, come in. We need to observe and understand what’s conducive to their individual personalities.

 Quote: Sheila Buckley

And I don't believe 100% compliance to ALL commands ALL the time is attainable or desireable. A thinking companion is much more valuable than a programmed one. JMO

Sheila, I couldn’t agree with you more, however, if you knew the way Vince thinks, you’d know why I’m striving for that 100% programming. I’ll lighten when he knows for a fact that mom is ALWAYS right.

Post moved. Mod note:

Please see
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=338284&page=0#Post338284
so we try to avoid any more of a hijack.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (07/12/2011 04:01 PM)
Edit reason: modit

Jessica

While Al's advice is a little more blunt then I would type no one can pack up a group of strong dogs like he can.

CJ, that was a fantastic post.

FWIW my ACD mix might pick on my other dog if I am doing something with a cow that he would like to be helping with, or he might chase the cat. Or, if I'm fooling with horses (he's not allowed to help with horses) he might chase the ducks.