I was under the impression you were talking about Obedience... you know.. title Aggression in Obedience...

I'm still lost. Why the heck don't you explain what it is specifically that you are doing in training.

I do have a guess though, are you talking about stages of training where the dog learns that the correction can mean the reward is coming, so in response to the correction he actually goes UP in drive? Anticipating the reward? That is an idea used in drive-compulsion-drive.

I think I may know what your talking about. I know a guy that teaches a little obedience in the beggining with food or toy. He'll see the dog execute the behavior once or twice (maybe a little more) at home and then try to switch the obedience training in protection to ideally get the high drive and fast resilience to correction. IMO, I do not like the results at all. Since the behavior hasn't really been proofed and isn't solid he ends up doing a lot more banging on the dog then needed to. He then takes away the intensity in the dog from protection because the dog ends up going through very forceful obedience before he gets bites (not so desireable for the dog). So the dog's intensity gradually declines. And it just makes training that much harder because the dog doesn't know what he wants and then he's in his highest drive and expected to think through it. He needs helpers to continously whip through his obedience in protection just the dogs mood can come up a little. So the dog ends up needing super stimulation just to have some drive for obedience. The dog's also tend to have a very worn out look.

Sch3Fh2 is on the money (like always).

 Quote:

Originally posted by Steve C:
Sch3FH2, So you're saying all you train with is prey in protection?

As "The Robot" would say - "that does not compute!" How did you get from talking about the HANDLER bringing fight to the dog in the OBEDIENCE phase to talking about prey in protection?? Of course I don't train in all prey in protection. But the fight comes from the helper, not me. But even in bitework, I don't use hardly any compulsion to teach the control aspects, like heeling, blind search, etc. I used to, but I like the results without it a ton better. Last nite my youngster was heeling so intensely, never once looking at the helper who was providing distractions, cuz he knew the way to get me to send him was to stare at ME, not him. It was gorgeous, and zero compulsion. And the dog still loads himself, waiting for that release, knowing that he's doing exactly what it takes to be sent so the order will come any second.... Then when you do release, they explode.

First, if you think your dog is in his highest drive in prey, ie ball chasing, then perhaps you have not experienced a high level of pressure in obedience. I am not saying you have not seen it done incorrectly as you have in protection, when a dog just goes into avoidance. High levels of intensity and focus and correctness comes from pressure not the comfort of prey. And if you recall, prey can be satisfied, just throw the ball 25 times and see what happens to intensity. Now give 25 pressures and see who is more intense, the ball chaser or the dog under pressure? Just ask Helmut Rieser and Fritz Biehler and Kaltenbach they all use a high level of pressure in obedience, sometimes to avoidance and sometimes they just take it to a conflict between dog and handler. An example in protection, after you have taught the hold and bark, now make conflict with the dog and handler and helper. The dog will a more intense hold and bark. This is protection and not obedience, just an example in protection about what is conflict and how it helps.

Examples of aggresion in obedience; is when I do a recall and use the whip or turns and flank my dog or grab his ears when he is not paying attention in the long heeling. Even after the pressure in the retrieves, tying the dog out and teasing him over the dumbell with a whip making him possesive of the dumbell. Then when I do the retrieves there is some conflict in the outs. This will bring aggression just by my dogs nature to keep what is his. This will carry me through the retrieves.

Just like in protection, if any of these are pushed too hard it becomes defense and in some manner aggression always starts in defense. Now you teach the dog how to respond to the pressure, by the dog paying more attention or nipping at the handler or just becoming more intense. There is a fine line when using SOCIAL aggression in obedience. Do not confuse this with the same aggression in protection.

No one disagrees that there is a level of defense or avoidance in the training, but this is just a side effect not a residual of the aggression training.

Steve C

Ok, now I feel I can answer your question...

 Quote:

Originally posted by Steve C:
Do a lot of you that train for Sch.,Do aggression in the obedience

NO!

what is that scraping sound I hear? Oh, must be some knuckles dragging <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have to agree with Shepherdnauzergirl here... You look at the top trainers, while they may use "some" compulsion but they use motivation much more. The happy working dog works better and more correct. Not sure why you'd think different on this. Take people... you make them happy at their job, reward them and they'll turn themselves inside out for you. Take those same people and stand behind them while they "try" to work, breathe down their neck, and smack them in the head with a ruler every 60 seconds... they'll start thinking more about the beating than the task at hand and make many more mistakes, which in turn makes for more beatings, which in turn…

There is no way, with using all you're saying that you have a happy working dog. I can tell in a second who trains with a heavy hand, it always comes through loud and clear. Looks like crap too.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying not to use compulsion, but I am saying use motivation for bringing up the drive. You'll see a much better working animal. I think a lot of trainer used compulsion years ago. For me to even hear that someone was giving their dog treats for healing, or for anything, it made me sick! Bribing their dog, how insane! This dog WILL do what I say!!! .

But…I have learned, and both myself and my dogs are better because of it. HOT DOGS AND TENNIS BALLS …. THE ROAD TO VICTORY!!!

Steve C.,
The competitors you brought up--Fritz Biehler, Helmut Raiser--look like they pressure their dogs intensely. You can see it in the attitude and body language of the dogs as they are going through their obedience routines. I've found a great way learn styles in obedience is watching, re-watching and then comparing routines of the best guys on video in the BSP: I got several years of competitions from this site, Ed sells them. To demonstrate the contrast between what you have been saying and what others on the board in this thread have been saying is the 1990 BSP. Buy it, or PM me with your address and I'll send it to you if you want. Watch the winner's routine, Xanto Karthago. He got a 98. The dog was very correct, methodical, medium spirited. But look at his ears folded back most of the time, the way he carries his tail....The trainer must have used pressure to train these exercises, and the dog shows it! The very next routine is Jurgen Strassen with Aly St. Wildener-Land: Got a 98 also, but this dog BOUNCES, PRANCES, tail wagging wildly; the dog is GLUED to the handler at all times, with his head riveted to the handler's face. Ears are straight up, tail wagging....the judge remarks that this dog is truly happy and is an example of what he looks for. Later in the tape you can see Raiser, Biehler, Gugnon, etc. While their routines are precise and correct, and minor deductions were taken off, compare them all to Aly....What I've learned so far in training is that for Schutzhund, which is a SPORT, the bouncy, prancing happy dog makes a great impression....but it takes a lot of energy and athleticism to get the dog to be like that. Roughhousing with the dog, getting down and dirty with him, running around like a lunatic---all this builds trust, happiness and confidence, which translates into that look I'm talking about that Strassen achieved with his dog...the dog looks like he's going to explode! From what you are saying, you want the dog to do all the work; you want to simply walk alongside the dog and give him commands, and if he doesn't act like a soldier, boom! he gets cracked. Maybe the dog does everything correctly, but where's the fun?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Steve C:
First, if you think your dog is in his highest drive in prey, ie ball chasing, then perhaps you have not experienced a high level of pressure in obedience.

Let me rephrase: normally, FEAR is the greatest motivator of them all, bar none. However, I simply do not want my dog working out of fear. And I have honestly seen quite a few sport dogs who simply could not be impressed with pain or compulsion of any sort - their drive for the prey is so intense that they are willing to come thru anything to get it. Greg Bennett's old dog Boss, whom Gary Hanrahan had for a couple years as a young dog, was one of them. Gary can put a whupping on a dog with the very best of them, and Boss would laugh and say what else you got Bubba? Just give me that damned ball.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Steve C:
I am not saying you have not seen it done incorrectly as you have in protection, when a dog just goes into avoidance.... No one disagrees that there is a level of defense or avoidance in the training, but this is just a side effect not a residual of the aggression training.

You're misunderstanding my use of the word avoidance - I meant that all these techniques that you are discribing are examples of avoidance conditioning IAW learning theory.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Steve C:
Just ask Helmut Rieser and Fritz Biehler and Kaltenbach they all use a high level of pressure in obedience,

Yup, and it shows big time. Seen Raiser's obedience in the last 5 yrs?? It's absolutely painful to watch, dog slithering around in a crouch, lip licking in submission, leaning on him to find a "safe" spot. Biehler's dog Fratz looked good working for him, but looked ten times better working for Cathy Jobe when she REMOVED all that pressure and used motivational training instead. You notice these guys aren't winning anything anymore, right? That's old school training.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Steve C:
Examples of aggresion in obedience; is when I do a recall and use the whip or turns and flank my dog or grab his ears when he is not paying attention in the long heeling.

Most people would argue that using the whip in that scenario is like tossing a ball in the air to motivate a faster recall - it's positive attraction to the dog, has nothing to do with aggression. And flanking your dog for misbehavior is back to avoidance conditioning - which raises the question that if it were such an intense, powerful tool, how come the dog loses focus in the first place? Just TRY to get some of these positive reinforcement dogs to look away from their handler! Ain't happening, cuz their motivation is so high. And the picture is awesome to boot.

Originally posted by Hadley:
I have to agree with Shepherdnauzergirl here... You look at the top trainers, while they may use "some" compulsion but they use motivation much more. The happy working dog works better and more correct. Not sure why you'd think different on this.

Michael Writes:
This is not true so to speak. It is an empty statement - many of the top German trainers use heavy compulsion to train ob. While there are people like Bernhard, there are there fair share of complusion trainers that compete in Schutzhund at the top level. In fact I am questioning that alot of this strictly happy happy method, has weakended the breed overall.

Hadley Wrote:
Take people... you make them happy at their job, reward them and they'll turn themselves inside out for you. Take those same people and stand behind them while they "try" to work, breathe down their neck, and smack them in the head with a ruler every 60 seconds... they'll start thinking more about the beating than the task at hand and make many more mistakes, which in turn makes for more beatings, which in turn…

Michael Writes:
While I grasp your point and it is true when applied in situtations without people who have mastered avoidence training, with people that have, with the right dog it is not a shit looking picture.

Hadley Wrote:
There is no way, with using all you're saying that you have a happy working dog. I can tell in a second who trains with a heavy hand, it always comes through loud and clear. Looks like crap too.

Michael Writes:
Again not always true in my view.

Hadley Wrote:
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying not to use compulsion, but I am saying use motivation for bringing up the drive. You'll see a much better working animal. I think a lot of trainer used compulsion years ago. For me to even hear that someone was giving their dog treats for healing, or for anything, it made me sick! Bribing their dog, how insane! This dog WILL do what I say!!! .

But…I have learned, and both myself and my dogs are better because of it. HOT DOGS AND TENNIS BALLS …. THE ROAD TO VICTORY!!!

Michael Writes:

Tennis balls will kill your dog, and hot dogs, I have not seen any top dogs that were schooled from start to finish with food.