Thanks for your input. I have been working on building voice control with Jethro, and having him on a longer line is helping with that. You are also right, that the 30' line was too long, he had more freedom than he could handle. For the midday walk, I divided up the dogs, taking Skipper out first, and then Jethro. It was much easier to handle one dog at a time, even if their walks were slightly shorter.

This evening I squared my shoulders and gave clear direction to both of them, treating them equally and rewarding them equally for desired behaviours. It went much better. I needed that little booster, to take back my leadership and not let circumstances and complacence allow either dog to decide they needed to take up the slack.

Our lives have been disrupted for months with this renovation, we are really making the best of the situation. I am prone to feeling guilty for not providing my dogs with their ultimate lives, when in fact they have much better lives than many dogs, even if they are not perfect. When I feel guilty, I tend to go soft, and that is when Jethro will pick up the slack.

What Connie said about the 30ft lead!
This guy had the sense to stand still. What happens with the same situation and it's a kid that turns and runs?!
Your allowing this dog to much freedom.

"I am prone to feeling guilty for not providing my dogs with their ultimate lives."

Dogs are pack animals. They need leadership. That will create their "ultimate" life.

Jenny: I know that frustration. It could be too that all the people coming in and going out are really hyping up his nerves. I have a pup who is very intense. It can be emotionally exhausting and I understand your feelings. I know things will improve because you are a committed dog owner who wants to work with your dog. I have been really busy in a renovation before too and you sometimes wonder how you will balance doing all you need to and work with your dog as well.
Maybe (if you can, don't know all your situation) you could use the people coming in and out as training. You probably have spent time using positive reinforcement for your dog before in this situation. How about counter conditioning? Could you take some time each day to feed treats to your pup as say, the older lady goes through the trash, or when someone comes in the door or gate. It would take a lot of time I know but maybe as you feed him and reward him for seeing people but keeping his attention on you, he will learn that people=treats. Just a thought. I have done that with my dog cody who is fearful and soon when he sees someone, or another dog,he looks to me for a treat. Anyway, don't give up. You will have better days.
In this picture my pups look so sweet and cute, but they can be handfuls too, especially my little black dog cody-man! Sometimes I feel like I am making no progress, but we all have those ups and downs in training. You will make it. Your pups will do better.

 Quote: Bob Scott

What Connie said about the 30ft lead!
This guy had the sense to stand still. What happens with the same situation and it's a kid that turns and runs?!

Your allowing this dog to much freedom.

"I am prone to feeling guilty for not providing my dogs with their ultimate lives."

Dogs are pack animals. They need leadership. That will create their "ultimate" life.

Bob said much more succinctly than I did how dangerous that freedom and non-control were. That was indeed a close call, and it's good that you recognized that.


With regard to this, " I have been working on building voice control with Jethro, and having him on a longer line is helping with that", I read back a little bit this morning and couldn't immediately find how he is doing with basic ob. Where are you with no-distraction (controlled environment, no one else coming in or out, no distance, etc.) basic ob?

Jethro's basic OB is getting better and better. In the house I can call him off from barking at the window, he will follow my pointing finger even if he doesn't want to go the direction I want him to go, he will Settle (rest his head on his paws when he is in a Down). His recall is excellent. On the front porch he is getting much better at ceasing barking by voice or simply my coming outside to see what he is barking at. There are a few dogs in the neighbourhood that he has developed an enmity toward. When they go past he is likely to have a big reaction. He will cease and leave the porch with voice and pointing my finger - to go inside.

In the house and on the porch his basic OB is pretty much rock solid: Sit, Down, Come, Jethro, whistle recall, Wait.

Out in the world his basic OB is very good on the short leash (8'). He will Sit when highly aroused and triggered, he will volunteer Sit at street corners. He is looking at me when he sees other dogs, and responding to Leave It when he is getting aroused. We are having many walks that are completely reaction free. If he sees something that is triggering him, I can get him to Sit, and Wait and I will walk ahead of him to the length of the leash and make him wait until he has shaken off the trigger and then I give him the Okay. We continue to work on Okay as the release from a Sit, Down, or Wait. He will Halt at street corners 80% of the time, there is the odd time he ignores the curb and wants to keep going.

He is very good at loose leash walking, and will keep it loose whether I have him on a short leash or am giving him some room to roam.

As long as I can pre-empt his reactions, he is paying attention to me rather than ignoring me and going after an object of interest.

I do have a 12' leash, that I use as well. I started adding the longer leash because I wanted to continue challenging him with his response. On the short leash he is very reliable, but I realized in the odd situation where he has gotten off leash, I needed to condition him to more freedom to keep building his voice response.

He has gotten out of the yard a couple of times, and he slipped his collar once. I am terrified of having him out in the world without a good recall. That is why I have been using the 30' lead when I thought it was safe out.

I have just started working on his recall when he is heading away from me. Up until now, it has been mostly when he is heading toward me (to ensure success).

If it was me, I'd concentrate on where the holes in my training are. Looking back on some of your posts Jenny, at least when this still-buggy forum will allow it, I think your problem comes down to inconsistency. You got him at appx. 4mo's old and now at 2 you have the exact problems except now its a lot more dangerous. He's not a puppy anymore.

Remember "Look at that" from this thread?
http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=29422&page=7
This points out something a non-cerebral stumblebum could see coming a mile a way and this incident with someone almost getting bit is exactly the result. I can see this exact thing leading to two bites. Some stranger or a neighbor and then you trying to stop it.

All the obedience work your doing is where I think you need to focus on. Nevermind all the calming cues, common functional rewards, zones of proximal development, and all the other behaviorist stuff. Quit using reactive as his excuse and simplify things. Reward what you want, correct for or control with better management what you don't.

 Quote:

There are a few dogs in the neighbourhood that he has developed an enmity toward. When they go past he is likely to have a big reaction. He will cease and leave the porch with voice and pointing my finger - to go inside.

Here's another case in point Jenny, that I see as an inconsistency that you look at as a success because you call him away from it. I see that as too late, he already did what he wanted, put on his big show. Same kinda thing as "Look at that" Its too late.

 Quote:

As long as I can pre-empt his reactions, he is paying attention to me rather than ignoring me and going after an object of interest.

You're on to it here, but you just don't realize thats not what you're always doing, all the time. He needs to do what you want him to do, all the time. Don't let him just think for himself. Quit feeling guilty about him not running free Jenny, he'll adjust and then you'll see how content he can be not worrying about strangers, other dogs, and whatever else. Maybe you'll get to relax too.

There's so much in Steve's post that I've kind of agonized about how to phrase. I use too much wordiness. When I asked about his basic ob, what I should have said that he needs to do he do what you say at all times, every time, and as for situations where he may not, he needs not to be placed in them.

It's a tough thing to accept, that temperament can't be trained away, but it's a fact.

"He needs to do what you want him to do, all the time. Don't let him just think for himself" is what I was trying to say about the basic ob outside his reactive range..


He is not ready (and he may not become ready, which is where management comes in) for this: I needed to condition him to more freedom to keep building his voice response. .... He has gotten out of the yard a couple of times, and he slipped his collar once. I am terrified of having him out in the world without a good recall. That is why I have been using the 30' lead when I thought it was safe out.


As Bob said, the dog is not ready (and again, may not become ready) for a long line in public.

And I couldn't agree more that "pulling him away" is too late. It's always too late, if he has to be pulled away.

I hope really really strongly that these posts from the three who have expressed fear over this dog's need for management will trigger questions and discussion rather than defense and outrage. Jenny, you know a lot; you have learned so much about reactivity/aggression. I feel certain that a couple of shifts in POV would make the situation that prompted this thread unable to occur. That's what the dog needs, IMO.

Life could become so much less anxious. The dog could be managed so as not to be a danger, and his own stress in a situation like the one in the O.P. would be a thing of the past.

He is so lucky that he found you because this nugget expresses it all, IMO: As long as I can pre-empt his reactions, he is paying attention to me rather than ignoring me and going after an object of interest.

Well, I wouldn't be a member of this board if I couldn't take the difficult critiques.

My take away from this incident is that as long as I have to pull Jethro with the leash to get him to leave something alone, we are not cleared for any further challenges or longer leads.

If Jethro is thinking for himself, he is likely getting into trouble. I need to do the thinking for both of us, and make sure he is busy giving me what I am asking of him so that he doesn't take matters into his own paws.

It is heartbreaking to think that I might not share the joy of watching Jethro zooming up and down a beach, over a field, or through a forest, but his safety, and the safety of every living thing around him, comes first. I have to get over that.

Above all, I must practice extreme vigilance around ensuring Jethro is never loose, and never gets loose. It is more important that I put my focus on managing his containment than transferring his recall exercises to different venues and levels of distraction (ie. simulating a loose dog situation with a long lead to build recall for the possibility that he might get loose).

We just had a good walk, practicing Focus, Sit, Wait, and Leave It with pedestrians and pedestrians with dogs. We did pretty well, although I can see my ability to maintain focus is also going to be a determinant for how long we can walk.

An important part of working on focus is a clear release Jenny. He'll need to know when he's done. Sit, look, good,,,,,,,,good,,,, Free! On that release, he gets to be a dog. Sniff, pee, rollover for a belly rub, whatever. Its part of making things clear for him.

Thats also how you'll be able to walk as long as you want to. When I say "No thinking for himself" It isnt meaning that he has to stay in a focused heel for an entire walk, just a change in his attitude where he knows he is being allowed the freedom and he knows he has to obey when you tell him to focus on you.

I would say this is the hardest part for me, Steve. I think I need a new word, rather than Okay. I need something more definitive, not only for Jethro, but also for me. Like, All Done and that releases to the next phase. I've been sloppy on ending things, sometimes he ends them because he sees that I have forgotten to give the release. As in, "She led off with her left foot, which means we are supposed to move forward together, but she didn't say, Okay, to release me from this Sit." And then that leads to his anticipating and things get muddy from there.

I need my own clicker, a sound that signifies the end of focussed engagement and back to well-behaved dogginess.