Austin, While I have not zapped myself with an e-coller, I have used a prong on myself. I wanted to see/feel how it worked before I used it on my dog. Yes, even my soft dog needed a prong at one point in his training. Your dog should not be black around the edges and smoking when you turn the e-coller on. Through reading many of the posts on this board I have come to recognize the intrinsic value that the e-coller represents. Particularly when it comes to distance training or outing and focusing a PT dog.

Many retrievers are trained with e-collers. All retrievers at the Toronto Sportsmen's Show that participate in their Gold Whistle Trials are trained with the Tri-Tronics coller (that's what they announce). These dogs are all VERY happy to be retrieving and have VERY high retrieving drives, despite having their owners use the e-coller.

I have become more open to other methods of training since I have been reading posts on this board. Many of the great posts on this site are written by people with far more experience than you or I. While I will probably never PT a dog, in the future I do intend to get a dog with higher drives to possibly compete in agility, obedience or sport tracking. If one training method or piece of equipment doesn't work for a dog and handler you have to be willing to try another. That's all part of responsible dog ownership and training to achieve a desired result.

It's not all that bad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Austin Moon:

Many people see what I call abuse training and the result that it produces and vow never to use compulsion again. Abuse training can be done with an electric collar, pinch collar or even your foot. Compulsion on the other hand is used in some way by all top level trainers and is a necessary step in training.

Nice post Vince. 18 to go!!!

I would add that at some point every trainer uses some compulsion at some level, even if it is just guiding the dog into a position or crate.

Richard I think you would agree with me when I say that definition and explanation of terms have solved more problems on this board than any other technique. Once you explain what true compulsion is I am sure that almost every trainer would agree with its value.

Ps. How many times have even you and I argued to only come to realize we were saying the same thing? LOL.

Vince, if you make it to 1000 are you going to want your job back? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes:

VanCamp,

What are you kidding....Vince has become bigger than the moderator position itself!LOL Kind of like a legendary discussion board hero.LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> At this point, the moderator job would be a step down for him. Especially after we've contaminated it!LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

A title is meaningless. You all are family!

Plus I can keep an eye on VanCamp easier this way. LOL.

A title is meaningless, huh Vince? You're just saying that because you've never managed to pass your B!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I have seen it used in many ways incorrectly, but I also said use compulsion when needed. If you use compulsion all the time u might be killing the dogs drive and spirt to do what you want it to do. All I am saying is there are levels to the type of compulsion that you use. You dont jump to the highest level before exhausting other methods. And honestly there are more trainers that do not know how to use a shock collar or training collar then there is that do. I pefer to use training that is less hetic on the dog and more enjoyable. Alot of times especially with mals they start to whine right before there given the out command. I have seen this in more compulsion dogs then not. What do you think there whining because there happy about it and are like more electricity or more ass kicking please. All I am saying if you can have a dog that enjoys the training with out getting its ass kicked dont you think he would like it more. If thats the only way to train is by the shock collar I would say your very shallow in your training methods. You try the least compulsion and work your way up not jumping steps because your to lazy to do the training.

Austin Moon wrote: All I am saying is there are levels to the type of compulsion that you use. You dont jump to the highest level before exhausting other methods. And honestly there are more trainers that do not know how to use a shock collar or training collar then there is that do.

LC: You're probably right that there are more trainers that don't know how to use an Ecollar than there are those who do. Modern Ecollars are adjustable so that I can go to levels lower than any dog can feel and work up until he just feels it. Rocti asked for the correct way to use the tool. He’s already using it and having problems. I think that rather than tell him to put away what I consider to be the best dog-training tool that exists; he should get the answers as to the correct way to use it.

Austin Moon wrote : I pefer to use training that is less hetic on the dog and more enjoyable.

LC: If dogs are hectic and not enjoying themselves when the Ecollar is used, it’s not being used properly.

Austin Moon wrote : Alot of times especially with mals they start to whine right before there given the out command. I have seen this in more compulsion dogs then not. What do you think there whining because there happy about it and are like more electricity or more ass kicking please.

LC: I’ll suggest that if a dog is whining before he gets an out command there is more at work than just the Ecollar. Such a dog is anticipating a command and that in itself is a MAJOR problem. None of the dog that I train to out with an Ecollar either anticipates the out or whine before it comes. They have no idea that an out is coming and so they can’t anticipate it. I wonder how dogs that you’ve seen know when the command is coming?

Austin Moon wrote : All I am saying if you can have a dog that enjoys the training with out getting its ass kicked dont you think he would like it more.

LC: Anyone who’s kicking a dog’s ass with an Ecollar is misusing the tool. Such a person will also misuse a pinch, choke, buckle collar, or a clicker. Again, it’s not the tool; it’s the person using it.

Austin Moon wrote : If thats the only way to train is by the shock collar I would say your very shallow in your training methods. You try the least compulsion and work your way up not jumping steps because your to lazy to do the training.

LC: Wow Austin; for a guy with three posts to his name, you sure jump quickly to the insults! Now I’m shallow and lazy. ROFL. It’s fine to disagree with other’s training methods but please refrain from the name-calling and other personal attacks. It just cheapens you.

LC: I’ve never said that the “only way to train is by the shock collar” It’s certainly not. Dogs have been trained for a couple of centuries without them. But they’re here now and I think they’re the best tool available. The way that I use the Ecollar IS the least compulsion way of training. I also use food, praise, toys, and whatever else works. But, as several others have pointed out, some compulsion is necessary to ensure reliability.

LC: I notice that you’re a military dog handler. Can you tell us about your experience with the Ecollar?