Again, thank you for the time spent discussing your opinions. Like you, I have come to a similar conclusion, that for serious work, a dog with a more "proven" temperament as evidenced by a working pedigree and proper assessment of the litter would produce the best results.

In the future, if the dog were to become a serious component of my field work that I depended on, I will certainly go for a well respected breeder. However, as of now, anything a dog could do will be a bonus, and if scent work is not in the cards for whichever dog I decide to rescue, than so be it. He/she can come along and provide company and entertainment in the field!

Also, for the record, I have read most of Ian Dunbar's stuff, the Leerburg articles and free videos, Cesar Milan, The Monks of New Skeete, Koehler, Karen Pryor, etc etc, as well as books on herding, SAR, scent detection, etc. I like to learn all sides of an issue before making up my mind, and after reading up and looking at the all the different methods, marker training/ the Michael Ellis philosophy is where I ended up settling.

In the spirit of discussing ACD's, I felt like posting this poem, which always makes me smile:


THE CATTLE DOG’S REVENGE

© Jack Drake

If you’ve ever lived upon a farm, you’ll know the feeling well.
How easy it can be to get the visitors from Hell.
Y’know those mongrels from the city that invite themselves to stay
Because they only want a holiday where they don’t have to pay.

Now, I might be pretty cynical and I was just a kid,
But I’d seen it happen every year – it’s what they always did,
Bring some ice cream and a box of fruit and half a slab of beer,
And act like it’s a favour if they stay here half the year.

And all on the assumption that we’d be so glad to see
The half brother of our Uncle Harry’s wife’s third cousin Bea.
They never do a tap of work. They clean up all our grog.
But it all came to a screeching halt the year they brought the dog!

Yes, the middle seat was taken by this huge Rottweiler thing.
On his neck a studded collar without a hitching ring.
The old man stared in silence, then said “You’ll have to tie him up”.
They said, “He’s had obedience training, and he’s just the sweetest pup”.

The dog bailed out the window. They said “Oh you little tyke”.
One word from this mug and he did exactly as he liked,
And like a black and tan tornado with a brainless, snarling face,
He caused an orgy of destruction ‘round our peaceful country place.

He flogged our poor old kelpie bitch and not content with that,
Killed six of Mum’s best laying chooks and murdered Grandma’s cat.
He chewed our poor pet possum’s tail and chased it up a tree
While this dork flicked pages in his book on “Dog Psychology”.

And while the city bloke was trying to find answers out of books,
The Rottweiler, teeth gnashing, headed straight for Andy’s chooks.
Yes, young Andy’s special bantams who’d won prizes at the show,
Looked just like they were going to be the next thing here to go.

But Andy was a cunning lad with everything to gain.
He raced over to the kennels and let Woody off the chain.
And so to vindicate the honour of our simple country mutts,
Woody flew into the Rottweiler, and latched onto his nuts.

Now Woody is a cattle dog who’s been around for years,
And for sportsmanship and honour, he won’t get any cheers,
But he has one saving grace inside a multitude of sins.
By using every low trick in the book – Woody always wins!

From that useless flaming boofhead, there arose an awful howl.
They took off down the paddock at a thousand miles an hour
With Woody hanging grimly – his feet skidding in the dirt –
While my legs crossed all on their own, ‘cause strewth, it must have hurt.

He swung hard between two saplings and set his own dog trap
When Woody sliding sideways, just failed to make the gap.
The bellows of the Rottweiler became a high pitched squeak.
He lost all interest in the flight, and sat down in the creek.

Then this poor mug from the city, he started acting tough
‘till Dad roared in his face, “You bum! I’ve had a bloody ‘nough!
Old Woody did the right thing. The proper thing to do!
Anyone who’d breed that mongrel, would be dumb as bloody you!”

And Dad’s whole face went scarlet. His eyes flashed hard and mean.
He howled, “I’ve seen some bludging mongrels, but you’re the best I’ve
seen!
So pack your traps and snatch it, you rotten mongrel sod,
Or I’ll make a wether out of you like Woody did your dog!”

With the air of people greatly wronged, they loaded their pet up
And bounced off down the driveway with that castrated pup.
But no more will we be troubled by those pushy city folk
Who inflict themselves upon you ‘till it’s gone beyond a joke.

And sometimes when the ‘phone rings getting on towards Christmas time,
Dad’s jaw begins to tighten as he’s listening on the line.
Our grins keep getting wider. The Old Man begins to cough
Then roars, “I’ve only got two words for you, and the second one
is…..OFF!”

Hey John,
I worked as a field wildlife biologist for quite a few years, and I also had high energy dogs while doing this.

Word of caution- not every job likes or allows a dog to come with you in the field. You are also exposing your dog to a lot of dangerous things, especially ticks, snakes, and high heat. My dogs have all had tick illness- at the life threatening stage, as well as myself. We've had some scary run-ins with snakes- copperheads, rattlers, and water moccasin. My beloved field dog likely died of 'Valley Fever' from a field season in Arizona. I regret this so much.

I had to choose my wildlife field jobs based on whether they would allow a dog to come or not. If you are planning to do some seasonal wildlife jobs after graduating- as I did for a few years- you'll sometimes want to do something really cool and can't take the dog. I passed up studying gibbons in Thailand because I couldn't leave my dogs for three months straight. Or studying certain species because of restriction on dogs- like wolves, wolverines, etc. Unless your dog is hired for the job, they are usually STRONGLY discouraged (bats are a good one to get into with a dog).

I've also looked at the Conservation Dogs website. Almost all their dogs are rescues. The descriptions of the dogs they choose DO NOT make them sound like good pets- even high energy pets. I currently have an very high energy malinois. I think she would excel at scat detection work. I'm not sure we will ever do this work because I'm not sure there is the demand, plus she'd be self-trained (by me) as I would never send her off to the Center. She could also survey for dead bats, birds etc. at wind sites and/or track wildlife as well. BUT I have more of an office job now so I'm not as involved with field work. Even doing SAR- which she'd also excel at, if off the table due to time constraints. So make sure this is something you may do, before you get a puppy that is just crazy go go go and you can't meet that need for work. Not that they'd need to do that job specifically, but they will need a job. In my case, I've chosen recreational detection and schutzhund.

My malinois is perfectly content to turn off AFTER the 2.5 mile morning job, 4 miles mid-day jog with so much water retrieve, tug, OB work, etc. that she runs and I mean runs 7 miles, then an evening trail run or mountain hike of 7-10 miles (or more). And, she is more than ready to do more but I try to let her relax in the evenings. We train with schutzhund a couple nights a week. She is 15 months old now.

But I love it. I'm very active and wanted a really active, athletic dog. In the past I always made time to run at least 1.5 hours with my 'field' dog (now passed) but it often meant getting up early after surveying for bats all night and taking him out while it was still cool enough- for example...Sacrificing sleep or 'down time'.

Also, I've had roommates. Not with my high drive-high energy malinois but with my high energy dog I had when I was doing field work. And he was TOO MUCH FOR THEM TO HANDLE. He wasn't human aggressive but he just didn't care for anyone but me. Or listen to anyone but me. Fine for us, but not so good for other people who might try to care for him. So don't count on other people being able to take care of your dog the way you would. Plus, the novelty and 'fun' of taking care of someone else's high energy dog wears off pretty soon. My malinois would be way too much for most people. Way too much.

I'm not trying to discourage you. I LOVED my time in the field with my dog. But be prepared. If you can, make sure there is a need for a wildlife detection dog in your work area. Then, if there is, get a dog with the over the top drive needed to do the work (there are some in rescues, choose wisely). But do be aware of the limits a dog will put on your job options and travel options.

I worked a full time job raising my malinois, and my other two dogs, and still do. But I also have a partner in life who loves the outdoors as much as I do, and the ability to go out my door and find miles of open space for me and my dogs to enjoy. It's a lifestyle choice, and one I don't regret. I've never hired a dog walker for my dogs, but it is cool enough here, and I have shade if needed, so I can bring my dogs to work daily. One in the office, the rest rotated in the car. Never had an issue with that.

I'm really curious to know what you find in terms of self-trained wildlife detection/scat detection dogs and the need for them in the wildlife field. Please keep me updated via PM.

Good luck! Sorry to sound so discouraging, but experience is a tough teacher. You can do it, but go into it knowing exactly what you are signing up for.

From what you've written, you sound like you'd be a great dog owner for a high energy dog. It might also be interesting to look into doing an internship (?) at the conservation dogs facility before getting your dog. You can learn valuable handling skills and network like crazy so your dog will have jobs. Just a thought.

Hi Kiersten, thank you for the in depth response.

"Word of caution- not every job likes or allows a dog to come with you in the field. You are also exposing your dog to a lot of dangerous things, especially ticks, snakes, and high heat."

I took a bit of time off from undergrad, so I've been fortunate enough to have field jobs in Michigan, Indiana, Florida, and North Carolina. I did not get a dog right away because of this. I had my fun radio-tracking red wolves and black bears, messing with wood frogs and hellbenders, and tracking rattlesnakes. I plan on doing snake avoidance training. I've also had Lyme disease, so I am aware of the dangers of ticks. As for the heat, I understand how to cool dogs off, ie wetting their belly, and having enough water and breaks. However, that is one reason I love ACDs - natural heat resistance (obviously I wouldn't take this for granted).

"And he was TOO MUCH FOR THEM TO HANDLE. He wasn't human aggressive but he just didn't care for anyone but me. Or listen to anyone but me. Fine for us, but not so good for other people who might try to care for him. So don't count on other people being able to take care of your dog the way you would."

I have taken this into consideration, and I would not have other people exercising him ,just taking him out for bathroom breaks. I have no problem taking him out early before work and after work, and have done this for other dogs I have fostered/ raised/ watched.

"It might also be interesting to look into doing an internship (?) at the conservation dogs facility before getting your dog. You can learn valuable handling skills and network like crazy so your dog will have jobs. Just a thought."

One step ahead of you As an undergrad I volunteered at their kennel, and my job was simply to exercise the dogs, all day. I am well aware of their "crazy" personalities and intense attitudes. I'm also friends with the kennel and operations manager, and I was going to consider leasing one of their dogs for my project, but we weren't able to get funding, so he is willing to help me train my own, if I can find one that suits the task.

Once again, thank you very much for your input, and I certainly agree with and respect your statement "Good luck! Sorry to sound so discouraging, but experience is a tough teacher. You can do it, but go into it knowing exactly what you are signing up for."

-John

A lot of energy can be drained off an ACD with mental exercises.
Get your bowl, put your bowl away, find the remote, bring it, find my husband, shut the door, open the door...... The list is endless. Language skills grow quickly.
Not all of it needs to be miles with this breed.

Betty, thank you! It's one of those things I "know," but worry about The extra confirmation is helpful, thank you! I've been planning for a dog of my own since high school, and I've had to put it on the back burner for 6 years do to college and post college jobs. But now I will have a solid house with a backyard for the next two years, and now that the time is closing in to actual get it, I'm super nervous and over thinking and re-thinking everything.

thanks for sharing the poem john . . . good laughs

A lot of good information given already by many more experienced then I.

I tend to look at things differently sometimes, so I’ll give my 2 cents.

1.)How do you tire them out? Short sessions of vigorous play, and mental exercise. It’s the extended exercise periods where you may run into problems. Running on hard surfaces is a no-no until they get older, and even then it isn’t good for the joints to do it over long distances.

The more you exercise your pup, the harder it’s going to be to tire him out. A healthy diet is the best prevention to health problems in growing pups, or really any age dog for that matter.
Marker training is great, behavior shaping is the other aspect not to loose focus on as well.

2.)Training to walk on a loose leash is one of the basics, obviously. If you want him to, and he doesn’t know how to. Start at the beginning and teach him! Training out of a bad habit isn’t that hard, it’s just consistency. Even an old dog can learn new tricks.

3.) Think of it this way instead, your taking the item with a negative marker, and using positive reinforcement to show what is allowed to be chewed on. It’s showing in black and white what I allow and what I don’t. When I was teaching my two “leave it”, I expected “drop it” as well if it was in their mouth. Not a bad habit to get into.

4.) Teaching a dog to be quiet in the crate is a chore sometimes because of different possible factors, you need to identify the contributing factors and train them to a proper behavior.

For example – dog barks in crate because sees things outside. Put a sheet over the crate.

Doggy barks in crate because of separation anxiety; need to use a desensitizing routine to lessen the impact of you leaving his presence. Couple that with behavior shaping for proper behavior while in the crate, and it won’t take too long for them to get the hint.

Possible fear and anxiety - Try using an herbal remedy. (DAP for example)

Crates are to be associated with a safe haven, free some anxiety, and a place to get away if they need to. Keep the crate in a quiet area without a lot of distractions, and away from congregating areas.

5.) People have found ways to raise well rounded dogs, and work full time. There is no one answer, because everyone’s situations are different in some way. Having friends/family help, taking time off, adjusting your schedule so someone can pop in and help, etc… are all good ways. It’s just whatever works for you.

 Quote: John Vanek

In addition, I am hoping to train the dog to help me with my work, by finding snake and/or turtle nests and adults, in similar fashion to the work of this organization: http://conservationbiology.net/conservation-canines/

Here is an ACD and conservation work: http://www.seaturtleinc.org/about-us/meet-our-staff/

Scroll down to read about SPX.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (08/29/2012 11:10 AM)
Edit reason: fix broken link

posting mistake. Sorry.