Thanks Wendy.

I agree, they DO need more exercise and I'm doing the best I can atm.

Early mornings are kind of out. Crud, now I'm going to sound like the kind of person I hate on forums. In brief: Abby still gets me up between 2am & 4am to go out to the toilet. I have a lot of problems going to sleep & staying asleep, so I treasure what is available. It takes at least an hour for my pain killers to kick in in the morning. I have a lot going on in my house in the morning.

Outwardly Abby's hip dysplasia doesn't look bad, the Vet only did the x-ray because I insisted and was surprised by the result, as he said her hips feel really tight. I REALLY don't know what I can and can't do with her. Her x-ray looks very similar to the 7th picture down: http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm

On the flip side I also worry about over excersising? TBH I'm totally confused by how much I should be letting Abby run around I DO take her to the river most nights for a swim, which she loves and is great non-weight bearing exercise for her but I don't what I'm going to do when it starts to get cold.

The fence barking is not your typical running up and down barking. They will run to a point in the fence, bark madly, then leave when they're done or they'll just look at a point in the fence from the middle of the yard, bark madly and stop when they're done. The only actually fence running is when someone walks/jogs/rides past the front fence, then once they can't see the person they stop.

Duane, YES! Brilliant idea! I hadn't even thought of that, thank you

I think the only way you'll get the barking under control is to limit what they can see Joscelyn. They're satisfying themselves right now, pretty good and you're not going to get through to them.

This may seem a little off to you, but I'd let the dog with the bad hips do whatever she's up for except for jumping and constant running, like jogging. Manage her pain with the aspirin like Connie said. What will she be content with if she isnt active? The swimming is great, but you're never going to keep her satisfied with some calm walks only. To me, its a kind of quality of life deal.

 Quote: steve strom

I think the only way you'll get the barking under control is to limit what they can see Joscelyn. They're satisfying themselves right now, pretty good and you're not going to get through to them. .... This may seem a little off to you, but I'd let the dog with the bad hips do whatever she's up for except for jumping and constant running, like jogging. ....To me, its a kind of quality of life deal.

This too.

I'd probably do lots of work with that dog that tires out her brain, as suggested.

You've received good advice.

Wendy said to give them more outlets for pent-up energy ..... yes, absolutely.

And this:

Yep, I can be standing right next to her, talking to her, soothing her, trying to stop her from barking at whatever, doesn't work though. ... is not what I would do. I would teach no-bark (capture random silence to mark/reward even if you have to stand there in front of a barking dog and m/r the instant the dog stops to look at you with a "What the heck?" face. Don't name it until it's more than a few seconds, would be my thought.


When I asked how you respond to the doh who is barking at new furniture or something, you said: "With environment changes, I generally tell her to stop being a silly girl stand with her & reinforce her while she has a good look & sniff etc."

I wouldn't reinforce her like this. I'd look ahead when I knew there had been something big added, etc., and probably walk this dog past it on a leash. Briskly and calmly. I do mean a leash, in the house, to walk past a new chair -- and make clear how boring and uneventful and unworthy of attention the new chair is, rather than how the new chair needs barking, sniffing, and you standing by.

Also, pack leadership is going to go a long way toward calming this dog. Stand up tall, be calm, do lots of little training sessions, and become the center of the universe.

I'd probably consider a long line rather than allowing the fence-show to go on. Your family and the whole neighborhood are going to dislike the dogs if you don't step up.


PS
I want to second the comment Bob (I think) made: kudos for actually listening to the answers. You wouldn't believe how many people ask but don't really want to hear about anything but reinforcement or magic trick cures.





PS
Use only one word for search terms, BTW.

 Quote: steve strom

I think the only way you'll get the barking under control is to limit what they can see Joscelyn. They're satisfying themselves right now, pretty good and you're not going to get through to them.

I had actually already thought of that and have asked my husband to put some corrugated iron along the neighbour side fence as well as fencing in a "back yard", but he wont do it, for various reasons

 Quote: steve strom

This may seem a little off to you, but I'd let the dog with the bad hips do whatever she's up for except for jumping and constant running, like jogging. What will she be content with if she isnt active? The swimming is great, but you're never going to keep her satisfied with some calm walks only. To me, its a kind of quality of life deal.

I agree with what you're saying and have thought of that, but I'm terrified of making the dysplasia worse before it needs to be. Kelpies are a VERY active breed, running & jumping is part of their make up. Abby's favourite thing in the whole world is chasing & catching balls (but not brining them back lol), we don't do it with her anymore as I'm so worried about her injuring herself. She has injured herself on 3 occasions prior to me finding out about the dysplasia and still wanted to keep going. I believe that her "pain tolerance" is incredibly high as I tried an e-collar on her a month or so ago to try to stop the barking (which did not work at all), even at full power all she did was turn her head.

 Quote: steve strom

Manage her pain with the aspirin like Connie said.

Asprin?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I'd probably do lots of work with that dog that tires out her brain, as suggested.

You've received good advice.

Wendy said to give them more outlets for pent-up energy ..... yes, absolutely.

I'm MORE than happy to do more training with them, I just don't know WHAT to do. The only training information I have is on Obedience and that is out for Abby. I am hopelessly new at this. I'm totally frustrated with myself by my own lack of knowledge, I consider myself to be very intelligent BUT this just seems to be beyond me for some reason. I just don't have enough experience yet. I still need more specific information on what exactly I should be doing with Abby to "tire her brain out". Websites, books, DVD's, anything.

Apart from the 2 DVD's I already mentioned I also have all of the Michael Ellis DVD's that relate to Obedience (nothing on bite work etc). Both dogs have a brilliant recall under minimal distraction.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

And this:

Yep, I can be standing right next to her, talking to her, soothing her, trying to stop her from barking at whatever, doesn't work though. ... is not what I would do. I would teach no-bark (capture random silence to mark/reward even if you have to stand there in front of a barking dog and m/r the instant the dog stops to look at you with a "What the heck?" face. Don't name it until it's more than a few seconds, would be my thought.

Okies, shall try that and see how it goes. Nothing gets named until it is fluent At least I'm doing THAT right lol

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

When I asked how you respond to the dog who is barking at new furniture or something, you said: "With environment changes, I generally tell her to stop being a silly girl stand with her & reinforce her while she has a good look & sniff etc."

I wouldn't reinforce her like this. I'd look ahead when I knew there had been something big added, etc., and probably walk this dog past it on a leash. Briskly and calmly. I do mean a leash, in the house, to walk past a new chair -- and make clear how boring and uneventful and unworthy of attention the new chair is, rather than how the new chair needs barking, sniffing, and you standing by.

This one might be a little more tricky, as even just moving something a foot to the left or right can set her off. It doesn't need to be big, she barked at the Wedding Anniversary card I sat on the top of the fireplace!! I left a bucket on the step, instead of putting it just inside the doorway like I normally do, barkety-bark! Until she decides that whatever it is is ok. She seems to really dislike any sort of environmental chage.

Both dogs are on drag lines ALL of the time now both inside & out, have been for about a week now, it's making life a LOT easier

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Also, pack leadership is going to go a long way toward calming this dog. Stand up tall, be calm, do lots of little training sessions, and become the center of the universe.

The pack leadership looks as though it is starting to work now. Both dogs will break off whatever they are doing now and head straight to their ex-pens on command (when we're inside), even when they're full on playing with each other. I've started to do this if the play gets, what I consider to be too rough or over excited, for a bit of a "time out", cool down.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I'd probably consider a long line rather than allowing the fence-show to go on. Your family and the whole neighborhood are going to dislike the dogs if you don't step up.

Luckily enough we don't have too many neighbours and those that we do have are all quite elderly & hard of hearing lol. I live in a rural area, our house blocks are all around an acre We live on a corner, so only have 2 "close" neighbours
across the road there is parkland to the river. Across the road side we have more elderly, thankfully, hard of hearing, neighbours. BUT this does NOT make me any the less determined to get on top of this issue.

But on a more serious note, they are both on long, drag lines now, all of the time (inside & out), which I stay close enough to step on (when outside) when I need to redirect them Stella, the younger pup, is apparently not finding barking at things as self reinforcing as Abby does as I was easily able to recall her several times this morning when she started, without using the drag line to get her attention first (I just thought I'd try it and see what happened), I was really, really pleased about that.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

PS
I want to second the comment Bob (I think) made: kudos for actually listening to the answers. You wouldn't believe how many people ask but don't really want to hear about anything but reinforcement or magic trick cures.

Not much point in asking if you're not going to listen to the answers. Having said that though, I DO know exactly the type of person you're talking about!

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

PS
Use only one word for search terms, BTW.

Thanks, will do

Just a bit more info' on my aversion to morning walks:

We don't have a leash law here Everybody seems to walk their dogs in the morning - OFF LEASH!!! There are very few exceptions. These dogs are for the most part uncontrolled & uncontrollable! When I ask them to leash their dog/s I get the usual "oh my dog's friendly, you don't have to worry about him/her" to which I normally respond with, "Mine's NOT!", they are but I'm not about to tell them that, still doesn't make the leash their dogs though! I have even tried driving further away, even at one point to the near-ish National Park, where you're actually not supposed to take dogs AND have still bumped into the unleashed variety ARGH! SO frustrating, on the flip side, I rarely run into other dog walkers in the late afternoon/evening.

Interestingly though we did run into a local couple out for a stroll on our way to the river to take Abby for a swim last night. Stella went absolutely NUTS at them, barking, jumping, lunging, hackles raised, the whole nine yards. So clearly I need to do some more "socialising" training with her down the street to teach her to ignore people. Strangely enough she doesn't do that at Club, there are people & dogs everywhere there! I also don't "train" at club, I just use them for distraction/focus training

Edited by Joscelyn Lovett (02/26/2013 07:35 PM)
Edit reason: Typo's & more info!

"nterestingly though we did run into a local couple out for a stroll on our way to the river to take Abby for a swim last night. Stella went absolutely NUTS at them, barking, jumping, lunging, hackles raised, the whole nine yards. So clearly I need to do some more "socialising" training with her down the street to teach her to ignore people. Strangely enough she doesn't do that at Club, there are people & dogs everywhere there! I also don't "train" at club, I just use them for distraction/focus training"

Desensitizing a reactive dog is also going to go a lot more easily with strong pack leadership.

I mean much more than the pack structure protocol/DVD ..... I mean you being the unfailing in-charge decider, protector, and leader.




Do you know anything about scent games and nosework?

Nosework is a great mental game and can be done inside.

There are some very good free video on this site to get you started also there are 2 nosework DVD you can get.

"This one might be a little more tricky, as even just moving something a foot to the left or right can set her off. It doesn't need to be big, she barked at the Wedding Anniversary card I sat on the top of the fireplace!! I left a bucket on the step, instead of putting it just inside the doorway like I normally do, barkety-bark! Until she decides that whatever it is is ok. She seems to really dislike any sort of environmental chage. "


But also, you have been reinforcing it. Hand-in-hand with demo-ing how little such things matter will be a tired dog with less energy for reacting and a tired dog who absolutely trusts you, her pack leader, to deal with the environment. I know how simplistic this sounds, but it really is all an interrelated bundle.

This dog will never probably be at ease with surprises, but less frustrated energy, strong pack leadership, the confidence from frequent upbeat marker sessions, and NILIF (which is a very reassuring way for a dog to be able to predict outcomes) are all pieces of the less-reactive puzzle.

JMO!

SUCCESS!!!! Just a little bit excited. I took Abby for a walk earlier today with her prong collar on, as soon as she pulled (just outside the front gate lol), I corrected her & called her to heel, walked a few steps, M&R, kept doing this for a bit. After that if she started to get too far ahead, I marked her with a "no", she waited a half a step for me to catch up M&R etc, etc. Just took her for another walk, put the prong on but did not hook up the leash to it, just to her harness, when she started to surge, she got a 'no', M&R her waiting a moment for me to catch up, did this for the whole walk, worke a treat. Sometimes I think both of us need to be reminded I am so stoked, it was such a pleasure walking with her. Both walks were short and packed full of 'good' markers & treats. It's actually overcast today with a nice breeze, great day for training.