Quote: Christina Stockinger

Hi Candy, thanks for your clear comment. I have told you that since this incident I have them separed. I can guarantee you I don't intend to make experiments in such a case. I wouldn't have left them together, if I had suspected this.

Although the problem is solved now what concerns the safety of Charlie, it doesn't let me stop thinking about it. Slippie is not generally an aggressive dog. There are certain situations, I'm not aware of and I'm quase non stop pondering about this. It went so long so good and it doesn't get out of my mind, that I must behaved somehow wrong without being aware of it. That's what's bothering me and why I put this here in the board. the incidentes in the past I could at least somehow comprehend. That's why we avoided everything which could trigger envy or jealousy.

Could it have been just my presence? Or just a look at Charlie, which I didn't even notice? For me it is of great importance to find out her reason for reacting like that. This doesn't mean I'll risk it again. Safety first.

I'm fully aware, that no one of you can give me an explanation from far, impossible to know without having seen the whole situation. I just hoped to get a few hints or questions about my own behavior, which could haven given me an idea to watch myself better.

Sorry, now I have come back to that topic again, although I promised to shut up.

No need to "shut up" at all, Christina So long as Separation is Guaranteeing the SAFETY of the Dogs & Humans, then I am HAPPY to Continue the Discussion...

Question: Is it always your Brain-Damaged dog who is the VICTIM ???

Answer: IF so, his sometimes too Slow or Inappropriate actions can be a TRIGGER.

This of course CANNOT be corrected sufficiently to "defuse" an Attacker dog

If I were 40 years younger & were additionally a Very INTIMIDATING Presence, and were also Utterly Determined to wrangle a large pack of PROBLEMATIC pet dogs in my HOME, then I might (most likely not) but maybe just Might devote myself 24/7 to what you are doing -- I absolutely understand your Insatiable Thirst for KNOWLEDGE on the subject of K9 Behavior and "How to READ DOG Body-Language" ... I have been studying this topic for over 60 years myself

I have to agree with Candi that you may never find the cause of these attacks and keeping them separate is the best way to avoid the possibility of something VERY serious happening with the dogs.

I once had a dog that was solid as a rock "unless" he was around one of my nieces who is autistic and also has Cerebal Palsey (sp?)

My nieces "odd" movement was to much for this particular dog to handle.

Simple solution was we ALWAYS kept this particular dog put away when the niece was a round.

Thanks a lot Candi and Bob!

To your question, Candi: Yes and No. Now yes. And yes too: Charlie is slow in his reactions and is unable to defend himself properly. Though what surprises me, he can run like a fool.

Earlier it was not always Charlie, When we adopted the Lab-Mix from the street, Slippie attacked her also. But not in the very beginning. Once it was because the Lab had a fruit fallen from a tree in her mouth and didn't want to leave it to her. Although there were plenty of them lying on the ground, Slippie wanted exactly the one the Lab had. I guess she always wants to be the leader, she wants to determine or at least test out if she succeeds.

Well, this was long ago and we had then those trees felled, because a fruit can always fall and you don't discover it in time. We had in that period also the habit to give to each dog from time to time a bone (human sense of justice. ) This of course we don't do any more since a long time, We give bones only when the dogs are separed. Slippie used to attack and steel it or at least growl , Fortunately she didn't bite. I think, because the other dogs left it then to her.

Same thing with toys. She isn't interested at all in them. When I for example threw a ball to play with her she didn't move. But when one of the other dogs ran and caught it then she ran too and took it away fro them.

Also this is distant past. I never have toys lying around and don't play with a ball or such things, when she is not tethered or in the kennel.

So when she attacked, it was always because of such a trigger like envy/jealousy. That's why I'm still pondering what might have been the reason the last time with Charlie.

Bob, I also had thought for a while that it might be just because she dislikes Charlie. He is definitely different than the others. Already how he walks is quite strange, somehow like Charlie Chaplin. But why then didn't she attack him for such a long time? He could roam about in the yard and she didn't bother about him at all. Why doesn't she attack him, when we're on a walk together? Just because she is on the lead?

Or could it be that there is a certain slight anger in her which she can control by not paying attention to him but which over time cumulates and some day suddenly begins to boil?

So you think both that I probably will never find the answer and there is no possibility to train her better? More confront her with him in a positiv manner, e.g. more training of self control, engagement skills with Slippie in his presence, more trying to play together or sharing other positiv experiences but she of course on her leash? Is this just an unrealistic dream?

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

Thanks a lot Candi and Bob!

To your question, Candi: Yes and No. Now yes. And yes too: Charlie is slow in his reactions and is unable to defend himself properly.

Though what surprises me, he can run like a fool.

IMHO, this is because Running "is like" Singing, in that humans who STUTTER when they Speak do NOT stutter when they Sing

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

Earlier it was not always Charlie, When we adopted the Lab-Mix from the street, Slippie attacked her also. But not in the very beginning. Once it was because the Lab had a fruit fallen from a tree in her mouth and didn't want to leave it to her. Although there were plenty of them lying on the ground, Slippie wanted exactly the one the Lab had. I guess she always wants to be the leader, she wants to determine or at least test out if she succeeds.

Well, this was long ago and we had then those trees felled, because a fruit can always fall and you don't discover it in time. We had in that period also the habit to give to each dog from time to time a bone (human sense of justice. ) This of course we don't do any more since a long time, We give bones only when the dogs are separed. Slippie used to attack and steel it or at least growl , Fortunately she didn't bite. I think, because the other dogs left it then to her.

Same thing with toys. She isn't interested at all in them. When I for example threw a ball to play with her she didn't move. But when one of the other dogs ran and caught it then she ran too and took it away fro them.

Also this is distant past. I never have toys lying around and don't play with a ball or such things, when she is not tethered or in the kennel.

So when she attacked, it was always because of such a trigger like envy/jealousy. That's why I'm still pondering what might have been the reason the last time with Charlie.

Bob, I also had thought for a while that it might be just because she dislikes Charlie. He is definitely different than the others. Already how he walks is quite strange, somehow like Charlie Chaplin. But why then didn't she attack him for such a long time? He could roam about in the yard and she didn't bother about him at all. Why doesn't she attack him, when we're on a walk together? Just because she is on the lead?

Or could it be that there is a certain slight anger in her which she can control by not paying attention to him but which over time cumulates and some day suddenly begins to boil?

So you think both that I probably will never find the answer and there is no possibility to train her better? More confront her with him in a positiv manner, e.g. more training of self control, engagement skills with Slippie in his presence, more trying to play together or sharing other positiv experiences but she of course on her leash? Is this just an unrealistic dream?

This dog who Attacks is showing Dominance Aggression as an overly possessive bully ("what's Mine is mine & what's Yours is mine too") -- That is a character flaw in HUMANS which can be corrected (at least in public, if not in private) basically by social shaming ... Dogs are not instilled with "morals & ethics" so no amount of training can change their inbred Temperament Traits, but IF you are a POWERFUL enough Alpha by nature & a SKILLFUL enough Handler by expertise, then you can MAKE a dog Obey in your Presence (usually NOT always) though this requires "360 degree Vision" and LIGHTNING fast Reflexes which will never be Fail-Safe enough to RISK the SAFETY of other Dogs or Humans either, IMHO

Christina,

You can't cure canine aggression - you can only manage it. It is something that even with my experience with multiple dogs, I won't even try to live with. My dogs are not dog aggressive - I won't take one into the pack that is...

Slippie is not just possessive - she is dangerous. Some dogs will just give a growl or show some teeth to bully others- she is willing to go the distance and seriously injure another pack member. She could easily kill another one of the dogs...

This is not a dog that I would ever feel comfortable running with my dogs - even fully supervised. Fatal fights are lightning fast.

All just my opinion - take it for what it is...

Kelly

Christina,

You can't cure canine aggression - you can only manage it. It is something that even with my experience with multiple dogs, I won't even try to live with. My dogs are not dog aggressive - I won't take one into the pack that is...

Slippie is not just possessive - she is dangerous. Some dogs will just give a growl or show some teeth to bully others- she is willing to go the distance and seriously injure another pack member. She could easily kill another one of the dogs...

This is not a dog that I would ever feel comfortable running with my dogs - even fully supervised. Fatal fights are lightning fast.

All just my opinion - take it for what it is...

Kelly

 Quote: Kelly

Christina,

You can't cure canine aggression - you can only manage it. It is something that even with my experience with multiple dogs, I won't even try to live with. My dogs are not dog aggressive - I won't take one into the pack that is...

Slippie is not just possessive - she is dangerous. Some dogs will just give a growl or show some teeth to bully others- she is willing to go the distance and seriously injure another pack member. She could easily kill another one of the dogs...

This is not a dog that I would ever feel comfortable running with my dogs - even fully supervised. Fatal fights are lightning fast.

All just my opinion - take it for what it is...

Kelly

AGREED 100%, Kelly !!! Having been in the Akita Community for over 10 Years, I cannot stress enough How MANY Blood-Baths took place right under the noses of Clueless NEWBIE Owners who did NOT UNDERSTAND the Speed & Potential of a DEADLY SERIOUS member of that Breed when they Determine to Kill another DOG For want of a better description, it is NOT even a "fight" but is an Actual Assassination instead ... There is NO bluffing or Posturing or WARNING or "turning up the heat by degree" and the Dispatching is Done before anyone can EVER stop it.

My Akita spay ("Shock & Awe" Shaka) would obey my commands of "Leave It / Behind Me / Down-Stay" whenever it was NECESSARY for her to be near strange dogs, but I Always put her in a Basket Muzzle just as a FAIL-SAFE Shaka was RAISED with my Borzoi from the time she was a weanling, and he was 7 years old & was already the Resident "top dog" when Shaka arrived -- He established his alpha position over her on DAY ONE by simply Lifting a Lip above one set of K9 teeth (no growling, no "stank eye", no putting her on the ground, no repeat performance ever required) and I reinforced his RANK over her for the duration by having him be the FIRST in All things between Them ... Shaka always RESPECTED her Packmate from then on Forever, but if it Had Not worked that way, then I would have HAD to re-home HER because I will have Peace in my Home, period.

Well said Candi and Kelly!

But what you're saying ,Candy and Kelly, is horrible. I don't mean the fact why you're sayinng is horrible but that you have to say it. I was so often been told or had read from different people that if you've got enough leadership you can cure such a dog.

But the way you're telling about your experiences convinces me. I always thought it was my fault, because my leadership is certainly not strong enough but I had the meaning, this could be learned. It's also true that I have not 360° vision. That such terrible incidents can happen with lightening speed I don't need to believe, I know it, as I have experienced it myself.

The other side is, that I love Slippie immensly, she is apart from this danger a wonderful dog. If I had in mind to give her away, I wouldn't find anyone who wanted nor could handle her, because most people here don't train their dogs at all. They let them do what they want, and if the dog misbehaves - even if it is just for bolting out or jumping at them, he would be awfully beaten. To give Slippie up she would have to live in undescribable misery. So I prefer to keep her with a very responsible management. I can keep her in the kennel for some time and give her freedom in the yard and together with us, while the other 3 will be in their kennels. It will be a question of organisation.

She is also muzzle trained. This I had done because I wanted her to be used to it when we had to consult the Vet. Though she has never tried to bite him. But she didn't want him to put her a muzzle on, she was afraid of it. I could hold her mouth with my hands, but he only had to put the thermometer in. If he had had to hurt her, it would probably have been more difficult . I then also thought, it might be necessary in case of a car accident.

Nevertheless I will not allow her anymore to be together with the others, not even when wearing a muzzle. I've heard that in case of violent fight a good fitted muzzle will be certainly be a protection but they can hurt each other also badly with their nails.

I can let her be together with her sister though. She has never done anything to her. Socks is a bit smaller but much more agile. They have only their crazy half an hour in the evening, then they chase each other, this also in high speed and sometimes a bit rough, but it has always been just a game, never a fight. Do you think I shouldn't even allow her this? When I think it might become too rough, I stand up and say "He!" Then they stop.

If Slippie was mine he would be in "boot camp" right now ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER DOGS. They wouldn't move a paw without permission and earning the right to do so. They would learn reliable obedience through reward and punishment. Yes, punishment! You can't effectively train these dogs through positive reinforcement training only. You've tried it. It hasn't worked. These dogs need to be taught that stepping out of line brings consequences. Then I would reevaluate where you are when you are done. Four essentially board and train dogs is nearly a full time job but it needs to be done for the long term peace of your household IMO.

PM if you're interested in some resources for training your pack. I have a few trainers that consistently turn around aggression issues I can send you to.