Mike wrote: "There was no fear involved at all. He just has a low defense threshold, which means it doesn't take as much pressure to put him in defense as some of the other dogs."


I'm not real clear on what this means.

Philippe
Three times a day YOU play tug with him. Keep it moving on the ground not in the air over his head.
YOU build his pray as much as possible.

Decoy work; Hold him on a short lead holding the collar and keeping him on the ground. When he see's the decoy and goes balistic. The decoy stops and waits while you settle the dog. Then the decoy moves laterally past the dog with the sleeve low.The dog gets the bite. no misses. as the dog hits the sleeve it is quickly released. YOU move away with the dog and play tug. When the sleeve is released YOU kick it away, move to the sleeve but dont let the dog get it, then back away and as you do back away the decoy picks up the sleeve and repeat. Do this three or four times andtake it to the truck.
Next time do the same and after three or four times have the decoy hold the bite for the count of two and slip it. you move away and play the game with hi. Slowlly very slowly increase ith count or time with the bite.
This will desensatize the dog to the decoy, or take the threat away. He will begin to see the decoy as the one that brings the toy to him and his master to play the game of tug.
Keep up the three times a day tug play on the side.

It works
Ron

Vancamp, you're not clear on a lot of things, lol.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Philippe Jehl:
I also noted that each of his bites into the sleeve were solid clamp downs, rear of jaw and no chewing . earlier but after 1st sleeve bite, another decoy whom was not wearing a sleeve or suite approched my gsd, close enough to allow him a sniff if hand. GSD sniffed his hand, then returned focus on original decoy.


The bite was a hard crushing bite accompanied with shaking and growls. Once the sleeve was slipped all focus switched to the decoy. Gsd still working in defense. He was allowed another bite into the sleeve I ran him (with his jaw shut tight on sleeve, no chewing or nervousness) back to the truck.

Nothing to be concernerd unless you like pansy dogs. To me he sounds like a solid dog who is a fighter. For many this is desired as long as he is clear in the head and isn't "glazing over" during his bite work.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Philippe Jehl:
The decoy has been trying to get the gsd to work more in prey rather then defense. Until now they have been not allowing him to have a bite. Yesterday the decoy allowed him to have a bite.

It may seem novice like but anytime you want to develop something in a dog you need to go to the basics. For this dog I would use distance to help me take the dog's focus off the helper.

Don’t become fixed on the equipment as far as you need a sleeve and ONLY the sleeve to get this done because he isn’t a puppy anymore nor a novice bitter maybe. You and your dog go out on the field after your helper has set up the scenario of a long rope tied to a puppy tug. The rope needs to be at least 25-30 feet and no less.

You should approach the tug at a 90-degree angle to the handler so your dog does not key as easy on the helper. The helper is turned to the side so he can see you and the dog coming close to the tug.

As soon as the dog's nose reaches the tug the helper should yank it away a few feet and wait for a bark. The helper should hear the bark and move away once or twice and the handler (while keeping a handle) on the leash should allow the dog to get the tug. A Flexi-lead works well for this. Make certain at all times you have control of the dog just in case he is keying on the helper still. Once the dog gets the tug on a rope and a little tug-o-war with fast win game followed by a small trot on the field is in order.

This will begin the dog’s reconditioning to prey and bite work are like peas and carrots. You are listening for the high pitch prey type bark. I hope you and your folk can distinguish this bark. Take the dog off the field with only 2-3 bites. He will want to-do it more but don't. You can come back to the field after a 15-20 minute reprieve if you want to get more work in and repeat it just as you read it here.

Behind the training: The distance takes away the need to fight and allows some playtime. This play/prey drive building exercise will develop the prey for your bite work. Don’t try to hurry this you must keep the dog working in prey and for a while it is not a bad idea not to have direct helper bites. Don’t worry about the time away from sleeve bites. Your dog will pick up where he left off with a few circle in bites a few weeks later.

Once your dog is conditioned to the game and his bark says it is all fun and games the helper can slowly (incrementally) decrease the distance.

All that being said and it is a solution for you however I fail to see why you feel a need to further develop this dog’s prey drive when it sounds like he has the marbles in the bag already. If he is hitting the sleeve hard and full, he is using the prey part of the drive to get there and adding a little fire with desire. So the helper who he associates as a threat can't be his best buddy. “So what.” I say but I hope this helps and was clear enough for you to follow.

Dennis
I can agree with you completaly.
One question. On the bark you mention, Couldn't the high pitch also be defense? Actually I dont feel defense is that bad at this point.As long as he is fairly social of the decoy.

Ron

Mike, maybe I should spell out what I don't understand about your description.

How the heck is the dog in defense unless he senses some fear? If there is no fear there is no defense. A low defensive threshold doesn't mean the dog isn't sensing some fear, or threat. In fact it means the dog requires much less of a threat to turn on his nerves and stimulate his defensive drive.

(The drive that kicks in when the dog says, "oh crap, I'm going to have to defend myself from that threatening guy".)

The dog may not be showing many signs of AVOIDANCE, but the nerves have to be turned on to get a defensive reaction. He could be all forward and will engage, but there still is some fear involved to put him in defense.

Somebody stop me if I'm wrong. . .

Bravo for stating that so accurately and concisely!

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
Bravo for stating that so accurately and concisely!

Well I would add the defense happens at the point of contact and this response is now an associative conditioned response that could be party due to prior training.

Is this "Real fear" or conditioned response that is presented as defense?

The dog seems stable enough based on the description, so counter conditioning the defensive response to the filed helper would be a place to start I think. At any rate will have no harmful effects.

Well regardless of what the helper is trying to do he in not getting it done because the dog is triggered. I think of dogs having a natural inclination toward defense or prey with varied degrees in between. The scale can be 1-100 if you will and all dogs have a natural raw score on this scale for both.

Within each point there is a threshold for triggering a response. If the dog is naturly defensive he will need to only recall the last time he acted out and was able to win to understand scary acting is desired. I agree you should not ignor the dog’s rreactions but notice the dog is confident and calm in his bite and this does not lend me to think he is ragging out of control but just a strong dog ready to fight when pressed (threatened) into action.

Proximity and posturing checked by his past experiences will define his future reactions and only by reconditioning the dog to new experiences will you improve the dominating drive. The dog’s past experiences from puppy until now mixed with a genetic inclination makes this and many dogs like him what they are today.

I fail to read a better solution from others for this guy. Stating you know what the problem is does not fix it. If your goal is to develop or enhance the prey drive you start from the beginning without triggering the dog’s defensive tendencies. This will at least offer this dog and owner the best chance of teaching the dog the difference between playing on the field and beating the bad guy down when he is really threatened.

A good guy bad guy exercise would not be a bad idea for this dog also but only after you get some time logged in prey drive with helper on the field. Use distance as your friend and lower the threat so prey can be developed.

The bark for the prey is high and sharp. Defense and prey are always players when the dog engages the helper. For many dogs the dog learns prey barking gets the thing it wants to move and later the mature dog learn the deep bark says stay back because I am serious. You can hear the difference and what is really interesting is how 1 meter closer or away can change the dogs bark pitch. It is the treat influence level and it is individualized and relative to the environmental condition present each time you do it.