Why was that not mentioned here? Is there a reason for/against doing it this way?


Ummm, maybe it wasn't mentioned here because those suggestions are about three steps ahead of where you would start for basic bite building.

You might want to start looking at all the sources that you're getting advice from, and decide who's method suits your situation best. And everyone has a particular situation that determines just how and what kind of training they lean towards, whether it's a lack of time ( many people's problem ) or lack of finances ( your stated problem ) or lack of finding a club or trainer to work with.You're going to get conflicting advice many times if seek out information from too many sources, and you won't be experienced enough to determine what is good vs. what is bad advice.

And Robert made a good point here - protection training is expensive. It also needs to be kept up, which further raises expenses. And have you let your home insurance company know that your dog is receiving protection training? That usually results in a big increase in your insurance costs ( and if you don't notify them about that training, and your dog bites someone, the insurance company can use the concept of assumption of risk to make you liable for the bite costs, not the insurance company.
Has your current trainer told you any of this?

I was aware that some insurance companies not only discriminated against certain breeds, but also charged more for people with dogs that had had protection training. My insurance company didn't even ask if I HAD a dog, though, so I didn't think it would even be an issue. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Am I allowed to say what the name of the other board is that I referred to in my last post? Some of you may already be familiar with them and their methods.

Oh, and I didn't mean to imply that the people over there knew more than the people over here or anything like that; I just wondered why what one of them suggested right off the bat wasn't even brought up over here. That's all.


They also said that $65 a lesson is WAAAY too much (one said that their club or kennel or whatever charged $50 a month, and that included 3 lessons a week!), and that I should find a club, but I'm not sure what kind of club they mean. The Asheville Schutzhund Club is out for most of the reasons stated on their by-laws page (Asheville Schutzhund Club By-Laws). I don't know of any other clubs that are in this area (course, I didn't know the ASC existed until a few weeks ago either - maybe because they meet in Hendersonville, go figure), or what kind of clubs I should be checking into.

I have sent e-mails to all of the local trainers that do protection work to see what they charge and what kind of methods they use and etc. This IS something I'd like to pursue, but if it comes down to costing just as much (or more) to train my existing dog, or just buying a GSD or Mal that's already trained, we may just buy the already trained dog. I would rather just have the one dog right now, but if it comes down to it, it comes down to it.

You talk about not wanting to spend a lot of money........Do you know how much an already trained dog costs? And then on top of that you would have to continue his training anyway at a local Schutzhund club or a private trainer.

The reason nobody mentioned back-tying your dog was because like Will said "it was like 3 steps ahead of where you would start basic bite building". We took into consideration that money was an issue, so in my opinion whether it was a money issue or not, I don't think you can go wrong by getting "Drive, Focus, and Grip".
A lot of people who start protection work, don't really understand, or know how to build the dog's foundational Drive and Grip work. Not only is all this laid out, but it gives you a training program so you know exactly what to do and why you are doing it!

Kristen,
Most SchH clubs wouldn't allow you to be a member, simply because you're not interested in SchH. That's just common sense.
Maybe a PSA club, or one of the other reality-based dog protection sports would allow you to join and train in protection without the goal of getting a title. It might be worth your time to check on that. Spend a little time on the board here and peruse thru the old threads to get more ideas on that, if that interests you.

But I don't find the $65 per lesson that you're paying to be excessive. For an hour of one on one training, that sounds pretty good.

One gentle warning here that many of us have made over and over again - protection dog training remains the most scam filled area of modern dog training at this time. There are more phony's and rip-off artists in this field than anywhere else in dog training. Don't be afraid to check references and try to watch the training being done on someone else's dog first.


And I don't consider it "discrimination" for an insurance company to charge more for the owners of certain breeds, or for dogs that have bite work, that's just a valid business concept. Teenage drivers are charged more for their car insurance because they are involved in more accidents. Certain breeds are involved more in bite claims, and those breed owners will be charged more. Common sense at work.
I live and train large, dangerous dogs. Although I take extensive precautions to prevent mishaps ( and I haven't had an accidental bite yet, thank the stars ) something truly weird could happen ( like a car accident resulting in a crate bursting open along with the van door, resulting in a dog running free, or something just as bizarre ) ands so insurance is a good idea. Since I make a choice of my own free will to peruse my vocation, I am not surprised that I will have to pay more in insurance costs to cover the risk that the insurance company is taking on me.

It isn't that I'm not interested in Schutzhund; Gypsy just wouldn't do well at it. I don't think she'd pass the tracking part of it, and she won't retrieve anything either. We ARE planning on having a Sch dog in the future, though. Adam's dream job is to be a police or military k9 handler, but we just have to wait and see. I do understand what you're saying though about the clubs not wanting to accept me at this time.

I didn't think $65 a lesson was bad either, but $50 a month would definately be better if the training was worth a damn! lol


I think I may have misled some of you by mentioning the money issue; I just don't want to fork out tons of money to start - on equipment, club dues, trainers, etc. - if Gypsy isn't going to be suited for the work. That's what I meant by saying I didn't want to spend a lot of money.

 Quote:

One gentle warning here that many of us have made over and over again - protection dog training remains the most scam filled area of modern dog training at this time. There are more phony's and rip-off artists in this field than anywhere else in dog training. Don't be afraid to check references and try to watch the training being done on someone else's dog first.

Oh no, I understand that COMPLETELY. I've spoken with every single trainer in this area that's listed in the phone book. I've had consultations with most of them, and I didn't hesitate to ask for references if they did not provide me with them on their own. The trainer I'm working with now provided them up-front, first thing. He had them nicely organized in a binder, and urged me to contact any and all of them I wanted to. He also provided all of his qualifications and gave me background info on himself and his company. He is also in the process of schutzhund training his own shepherd right now. I've been very impressed with him so far; he's not like the other moronic trainers that believe there is only one way to train a dog and only one tool to use. He also has knowledge of canine behavior, which some of the trainers I talked to were extremely ignorant about. One of them even said that I *should* be letting Gypsy sleep not only in my bedroom, but in the bed with me - as well as giving her full access to the furniture - because that would strengthen her bond with me. :rolleyes:

 Quote:

And I don't consider it "discrimination" for an insurance company to charge more for the owners of certain breeds, or for dogs that have bite work, that's just a valid business concept.

I disagree with this statement. I feel that they should evaluate each client on a dog-by-dog basis. If the dog in question has no history of aggression or has never bitten a person, then I do not feel that just because that dog is of a certain breed, that the owner should be charged more for insurance.

It's 5:00 and time to go home, so that's that for now!

Again, thanks to all of you for your constructive critisism and input! Keep it coming!

Kristen it seems to me you keep missing the point everyone is trying to point out when you state the following:

This IS something I'd like to pursue, but if it comes down to costing just as much (or more) to train my existing dog, or just buying a GSD or Mal that's already trained, we may just buy the already trained dog. I would rather just have the one dog right now, but if it comes down to it, it comes down to it. The fact is it is not enough to just pay for the trained dog (and since it's expensive to buy a trained dog, and now you'll have the ADDITIONAL expense of feeding, vet bills, etc of another dog and you say cost is a factor) but the TRAINING involved for the handler is necessary. Matching up the dogs training and abilities with your skills and abilities as a trainer and handler are a must or it'll be like having a Tractor Trailer show up at your front door for a move, you have to be the driver, and you have never even driven a vehicle EVER. The Tractor trailer may be tuned up and run fine, but that doesn't mean you'll make it safely down the street in it.

And to add another dog to your home, one that has a good chance of being high drive, possibly dog aggressive, and most likely needing a strong hand and experience, would be more than most dog owners would like to do. And certainly not as a 'cost saver' because I know I'd only do it KNOWING I'd be off to alot of training with an experienced protection person so I could handle the dog. I agree that the cost for one on one training sounds right to me at $65. And that's hopefully with someone that is great and will be able to fit right in with the current training your dog turned up with.

Just my opinion, and maybe having a protection dog is alot easier than I thought.

 Quote:

You might want to start looking at all the sources that you're getting advice from

Uh-huh... Hey Will <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Swinging the tug around for a dog, with an inexperienced owner (so the dog is back tied for easier control on her part) is not exactly rocket science.. not like we were telling her to get suited up here and start charging her dog clatter stick in hand!

Good lord!

.. and yea, I think $65 is outragous considering it takes a very short amount of time to produce a so called PP dog.

Lets encourage scandelous amounts of money for training that requires a very small skill set! :rolleyes:

Join a good solid club, with good soild trainers who train dogs because they love doing it, not so that they can line their pockets!!! Not saying here that all people who charge for such services are crap.. just most <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Kristen. Now I'm confused. Going back to Will's comment about being too many steps ahead of yourself. To me step 1 is Why do I want a PP dog? In my opinion it has to be because you have a geniuine need for the protection. You fear for your safety. Or, you want to compete in protection sport. Or, you enjoy the training and bonding with your dog. If your current dog won't track or retrive I doubt he will have the drive for protection work anyway. But now you say you are willing to buy a fully trained dog. I just wonder if you fully understand the responsiblity that goes with owning a PP dog. This isn't just a cute title I can put on my dog to impress my friends. There are many things to consider before taking this step. You say that this is your husbands dream, then why isn't he on this board and doing the training? I don't mean to be discouraging, and I don't want to sound critical. I am just confused. I still think you should get the Drive, Focus and Grip DVD. Work with your dog. See if this is something you want to do. But start at Step 1 "Why do I want to have a protection dog"

I always find that when offering advice or opinions to people on a subject, one should have some experience on the subject being discussed.


And those of you who have ZERO experience with protection training, but who are still posting to protection related threads with opinions and advice know who the -F- you are.


Cut it out.


The cool thing about this board is that we have experienced people who talk about different aspects of dog training. The information here is generally pretty damn good because of that. Lets keep it that way. . .


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />