Brendan wrote: I apologise Donn if you are unfamliliar with Lous test. Maybe someone knows the link and can post it. Thanks for your input to this thread, Im learning lots.

***** LOL. Brendan Donn is VERY familiar with my test. Most of it I stole from him.

He's read it before. And for anyone who's interested, it's on Dr. P's website at
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/StakeOut.htm

At least now we have the real experts in Donn,Lou and Kevin explaining once and for all the difference between fight and prey drive,perhaps now the doubters will understand the difference.

Hello Brendan,

As Lou has posted, I am very familiar with the stake test. Years ago I developed a test that enabled me to determine what the dog really had – in spite of any training or non-catastrophic experiences. In other words, it gives me a clear and valid into the dogs individual genetics, heart, and mind. It is a subjective test that I developed for me – in my terms, and using my thought process – to select dogs that had the instinctual traits necessary for the job I was selecting for. I believe Lou uses his own version of that test.

I determine the animal’s primary combat drive – this is the drive the dog uses when engaged in full blown, down and dirty combat. I am also able to determine with relative certainty what other combat drives the dog possesses and to what level they are present. For example, if I were selecting a dog for most sport competitions, I would look for a prey monster that also possessed pronounced fight drive. In this case, the primary combat drive is prey, but the fight drive gives the dog the desire and ability to achieve victory when the prey is too tough or the prey “dies”.

On the other hand, for police work I require a dog with Primary Fight Drive. I do not want any significant defense drive in a police animal. Prey is not necessary, but it sure makes the training a lot easier. The last patrol dog I worked on the street was strictly a fight drive dog with mega hunting drive. This dog exhibited zero signs of having an ounce of prey and he had no interest in any type of play. Consequently, it was very difficult to develop a proper bite for police work and it made it a little more difficult to establish a working relationship with him. He turned out ok, located and engaged a lot of crooks, and was the best tracking dog I ever had.

As you know, genetics are determined even before birth. My old friend Wendell Nope says, “You can’t go back to a place you have never been to before” meaning that you cannot put something into a dog that was never there before, and that a dog cannot exhibit something he does not have. Conversely, chances are if you never invoke a drive, you will probably never see it. You would be surprised at the number of dogs that I have tested that showed at least sufficient fight drive. The owners are generally very surprised, as they have never seen this behavior in their dog before. In most cases this is due to the dog being conditioned through pattern training to expect a certain type of foe – usually prey.

At the risk of causing more confusion, I will attempt to depict with words the physical characteristics of the three primary combat drives during a “VALID” stake test.

Prey Drive – This one is widely recognizable – quick lateral movement stimulated by movement of the prey. The bark is generally intermittent and medium to medium/low in pitch sometimes accompanied with a high play type bark. Some young dogs will not bark at all. The demeanor is frenzied and intense.

Defense Drive – much of the dog’s physical behavior depends on their individual courage and nerves. A good dog in defense will initially accept any challenge, but will quickly change to behavior designed to avoid confrontation by warning and then scaring the opponent away. The bark can be low usually accompanied by growling. The dog begins to lower his body and head and attempts to make himself as fierce as possible. As the pressure builds, the behavior becomes more frenzied, such as charging at the end of the line accompanied with the classic defense postures. At the peak of pressure, the dog decides whether to stand and fight, or to run away. A dog with good nerves and sufficient courage will of course stand and fight. The others will still be running the next day unless you had the secured on a stake line.


Fight Drive – the dog clearly accepts any initial or continued challenge. The body is erect yet not a dominant posture. The dog is at the end of the line, consistently pulling in the direction of the opponent. The bark is a constant and cadence like with medium pitch. The dog’s entire body and bark is actually telling the challenger “Come to me! You want to fight? Then come to me! I can’t get to you, but I will gladly mix it up when you get here!”


As you see, I have barely touched on this subject and yet this post is quite long. I hope this helps with your understanding, but I have a hunch it will generate more questions.

Regards

Donn Yarnall http://www.donnyarnall.com

Donn, Thanks for you reply, as you mention it does trigger more questions.
You state you believe prey drive is not nesescary in a PSD although it does make training a lot easier. A couple of queries on this. How do you start a raw dog who hasn't got prey drive or not much? What techniques do you use if he isnt interested in doing things like chasing a sack or whatever? Most of the pup candidate tests seem to use the presence or abscence of high prey drive as the main indicator of a pups working ability , is it possible to apply any tests to a pup to gauge soley its fight drive because maybe its prey drive is weak? Why did the PSD animal abscence of prey make it difficult to develope a bite suitiable for service work? What sort of bite did he demonstrate prior to the modifying training you gave him? Was his bitting simply 'too gung ho' for a civil police application and so you had to tone down his act? You mention your fight driven dog made a great opperational man tracker. Was this because he was so highly motivated by his fight drive to get out there, find the enemy and bring the fight right to him?
Thanks.

If i'm understanding this correctly (not necessarily the case), you wouldn't be able to test a pup for fight drive, b/c it evolves partly due to experience, ie repeated success against the man.

And you all thought I just went away...LOL
Just got back from 2 weeks of HELL travel (all work mind you)...started reading this and will be sure to give my 2 cents as soon as the words stop blurring together...

I need to clarify one thing first - it is rare for any dog to possess so little prey as my last patrol dog. Ususally you will find that a dog with primary fight drive also possesses adequate to pronounced prey. I also almost always start training with an adult dog (18-24 mo's). This dog is somewhat settled and generally is what is will always be. You can test with realtive certainty the dogs drives and nerves. There are so many things that can affect the eventual working ability of a puppy, that it really nothing more than a good prospect.

It is difficult to test for or even observe a significant level in a puppy - puppy testing is very subjective, as all tests are. The general behavior to look for is the pup that approaches boldly, sometimes barking, but shows no sign of fear or defense or even dominance. He is usually the number 2 or 3 ranked dog in the litter, and almost never lower. Again, it is never more than an educated guess. However, you will not be able to miss the one that has mega fight.

Remember the purpose of fight drive = the detaining or driving off of a foe. In training the pup you do just that. You will be surprised at the instinct to detain. All the initial work should be civil with loose clothing in case the puppy feels a need to punish you for moving too much. Yes, the decoy gets some bumps and scrapes, but it is well worth it in the long run. If the puppy does bite, the decoy must comply with the puppy's orders to "stand still. BTW, it is very important the handler remain quiet and let the confrontation be between the decoy and the dog. Increase the time of detainment slowly from just a few barks at first to at least 50. End the deataining session with the handler calmly walking up to the dog and pick up his leash, The decoy must keep the dog focused on him. Have the decoy walk or run away, allowing the puppy to achieve drive satisfaction through victory.

As the puppy becomes more experienced, the intensity in the detaining behavior will also increase - and the bites will become harder. Only then do you want the decoy to wear minimal protective clothing.

Developing bite in a young fight drive dog is difficult because of the purpose for biting - detain or drive off. In a pure fight drive dog, equipment seems to just be a kind of barrier to get around in order to bite the man. Fortunately, most working dogs have at least sufficient prey drive, so this is rarely a problem. Train the puppy in prey, and when he is ready, have the decoy invoke fight.

It should be noted that the bite in each drive has its own characteristics and are designed to overcome certain types of foes.

Prey Bite - full mouth, hard grip intended to catch, hold, and kill prey - often accompanied with shaking of the prey.. If the grip is not strong enough, the prey escapes and the dog goes hungry. Drive satisfaction is achieved through death of the prey.

Fight Bite - nearly full mouth, but generally not as full or hard as prey. However, the opposite of defense occures when the dog is pressed into intense combat - the bite deepens and becomes harder. The bite is designed to control or detain a foe until the rest of the pack arrives. The more you put it to him, the more he gives back. Drive satisfaction is victory and does not require a bite to fulfill.

Defense Bite - Generally full mouth with hard, intense grip often accompanied with growking or vocalization. The purpose of the bite is to survive. WHen the dog is really pressed in combat, the grip tends to be more shallow. The bite is more vicious and it goes against the dog's instincts to release the bite - it is therefore more difficult to control the dog. Drive satisfaction is survival.

It is clear the fight drive dog is the easiest to control, and the bark and hold is reliable because it is instinctual. Make no mistake, the fight drive dog's bite is more than adequate to take down and control a criminal - but it is generally not as showy as a prey bite in competition.

My last service dog was an excellent tracker because he had mega hunting drive. This dog tracked just to track. For police work all I had to do was give him the job of tracking man and let him discover the necessary pace. After that I just got out of his way and let him do what nature compelled him to do. He was absolutely reliable because of his instincts, not because of any training I gave him. The motivation for the hunt was certainly the chance for the confrontation at the end.

But, motivation to hunt is an exhausting subject on its own. Space, time, as well as fatigue prohibit me from discussing it at this time.

Brendan - It is to bad you did not attend one of the seminars I gave in Australia - most of your questions would have been answered. Kris Kotsopoulos and his group did video the seminars. You can contact him at vonforell@vitel.com.au for info on the video. Otherwise you need to buy the book or come to one of my seminars. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Regards

Donn Yarnall http://www.donnyarnall.com

Donn,
The book??? I didn't see a book mentioned on your site? Have you a book published? Info, please!
Will you be posting your seminar schedule?

Joy,

Yes I am finishing up a book as we speak, and I have a video that will be available Sept 1. However, this is Ed's backyard and I don't know if it is appropriate to put out the info on his site without his permission.

Regards

Donn Yarnall

Joy:

I have seen what Kevin suggests in videos. But I did not understand this until I saw it in person. Maybe I’m just slow? But it sent chills down my spine. The confidence portrayed in this dog was awe-inspiring. He did not have true fight drive like Kevin’s dog because I have seen this dog work many times and I only saw this come out twice.