Mike Williams wrote:
"but I don't like the commercialized way that they have become today. I know that whenever someone or something becomes popular, they tend to change, but I don't think dog training should be one of those things. I think the seminars are too large and too much aimed at making money instead of really teaching something. JMO"

Mike, you of course are intitled to your opinions. And Bernhard stayed with me for 2 1/2 weeks, so we have similar experiences there.
But I have now attended five ( 5 ) Flinks seminars. I have yet to see one that was "too large" ( I define too large as there are so many people that a person's dog isn't getting worked, or questions aren't getting answered )

And as far as the seminars "too much aimed at making money instead of really teaching something"
I reply with a "huh"?
Are you talking about Bernhard making money? I would think that his being reimbursed for his time, expertise, and effort is a very fair thing. If you're talking about the clubs holding the seminars, none that I've heard of ( and I've spoken to four organizations that have held a Flinks seminar ) has made much money at all. My club just *barely* broke even, but since all my club members attended the seminar for free ( although they were helping to run the seminar, of course ) we all felt it was a great experience.
If you made a lot of money holding your Flinks seminar, my hats off to you. But I think you're in the minority there.

And as far as your statement about "really teaching something" - are you saying that seminar goers aren't getting valuable information when Bernhard is teaching? I've watched Bernhard lectures get better and bettter with each seminar that I go to of his. I usually leave his seminars with a firm three month training plan written down in good detail. That's a benefit at my level of experience that is worth more than I can express.

And I have *never* heard of someone leaving a Flinks seminar and say "well, I didn't learn anything".

And that's just *my* opinion...

Ditto to what Will said!

This post isn't directed at Flinks or anyone hosting his seminars in particular. It is about professionals and paying them what they deserve.


There isn't anything wrong with making money. We all have to do it.

What a great thing to make some money doing what we love and providing a great service to dogsport and other trainers.

I'd like to see more real job opportunities open up for GOOD working dog trainers. That would be a great thing IMO.

I'm sick of all the lame jerks peddling crap to make money, it would be nice if people who actaully have something to offer could do it without people coming down on them for it.

Will, Im curious as to why it took you 10 days to respond?
Will wrote"I have yet to see one that was "too large" ( I define too large as there are so many people that a person's dog isn't getting worked, or questions aren't getting answered )"

I guess your standards are different than mine Will!

Will wrote "Are you talking about Bernhard making money"?
Absolutely not! He earns it!

Will wrote "If you're talking about the clubs holding the seminars, none that I've heard of has made much money at all. My club just *barely* broke even"
No to that also. Mine didn't even break even.:-)
Im talking about people making money off of Bernhard and his training.

As for the rest of your statement, if you want to be a seminar hopper, that's your business. Everyone has their ways of training. Will, I guess the proof will be in the pudding won't it? If going to 5 Flinks seminars (or anyone else) helps you train better than it's money well spent. What I have a problem with is the COST of training in the United States. That's exactly why only a handful of people ever really win in this country. Everyone has to get PAID before they want to help anyone. I've been to Germany a few times now and over there, they all help each other for FREE. I know it's a four letter word and please excuse me in advance. Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Frawley:
"Are you referring to me in the post:
"Im talking about people making money off of Bernhard and his training. "

Ed wrote "I suggest that you elaborate on what you are talking about"
Ed Frawley

I see no reason to keep this private.
To answer your question, I have to ask. When you host a Flinks seminar, are you looking to improve your handler/training skills or make money? Are you profiting from Bernhard's training methods? If so then YES I am referring to you. I know things change but 3 years ago when I had Bernhard over to do a seminar, he charged $1000 per seminar + motel unless he stayed with someone. About $1700 if someone puts him up. Bernhard earns every penny of that and then some. I think having Bernhard over for seminars is excellent for dog sport and excellent for Bernhard. I just hate to see dog training, trainers or dog breeding become so commercialized and assembly line. I think it is RUINING dog sport in the United States and making it a rich man's sport.

Mike I have never met you. Are you the one who came to Peoria to pick up the bitch (CRICKET) that Bernhard had in Germany. The one he WOULD NOT title because she was not capable of sport work? Didn’t you sell that Cricket to a man in NM for good money who knew next to nothing about the sport? I think so because I have her and your customer on video.

If you talk to Bernhard you will find that he agrees with me and that your opinion is immature and unfounded.

From the very first time Bernhard and I met we have had an excellent relationship.

He and I understand our business relationship – you do not. But since you care to deal with this in an open forum I will explain it to you even though it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!. Feel free to copy this into a letter and send it on to Bernhard so he can confirm what I am saying.

From day one Bernhard and I have agreed that I would use the footage from the seminars to produce the training videos that I do. His only interest is in the advertising my videos brings to his name and his training. His goal is to build the reputation of his seminars so that when he retires from the police department he can travel the world and do seminars.

I filmed the very first seminar that he did in NM in 1999. I currently have over 250 hours of raw footage. Bernhard does not have any part in the production of the videos. I pick the topic, I pick the video footage to use, I write the script. I edit the videos and Bernhard gets famous. He is very satisfied with this.

You may pay Bernhard $1,000.00 for a seminar – I pay him a lot more than that.. All I care about is that expenses are covered and that he gets well paid for his time. Last years I lost $1,800.00 on the NM March seminar after I paid Bernhard $2,500.00 and paid for a two week vacation for him and Michael (his son) who is going to come and live with Cindy and I this summer.

You sell dogs, you sell your pups, is that using dog sports for money. I think so. The fact is there is nothing wrong with it. I suggest you mind your own business and focus on dog training and picking better dogs to train.

Mike,
Sometimes I'm too caught up in some aspect of training to spend as much time on the boards as I should, it was just one of those weeks. Hence the time period between replies.

Yep, *everybody* has different standards. If I go to a seminar and my dog didn't get worked, or my questions weren't answered - I wouldn't attend a seminar with that trainer again. So far, that hasn't been a problem with any of the Flinks seminars that I've been to.
And there are some trainers whose seminars I have attended in the past that I wouldn't repeat for a variety of reasons. And there are some seminars, like clicker training,or motivation only type seminars, that just don't interest me. On the other end of the spectrum, I wouldn't waste my money on any of Fred Hassen's "watch me light this dog's fur on fire" E collar seminars. I'm a big guy, and I know I have a heavy hand - but I won't brutualize a dog ( and yes, i use a varity of E collars for training on a daily basis )

I'm a little confused about your statement " Im talking about people making money off of Bernhard and his training."
Is that some kind of problem if Bernhard himself approves of it?
The only person that I know of that is trying to make money off of Bernhard Flinks *without* Mr. Flinks permission is Adam Katz, who's scamming people using the offer of Bernhard Flink training videos and then mis-directing them to Katz's site to sell them Katz's own crap video. ( Hopefully the police will eventually close him down )
So I'll assume you're talking about Adam Katz, unless you tell us different.

As far as the cost of good training here in the U.S. - yep, we are involved in an obscure sport for the Untied States, it's that simple. There is too small of a core population of people interested in this type of dog sport and training here, hence the high price we pay for it. If we were in Germany, clubs, helpers, trainers, and equipment would all be much easier to get.
It's all about location.

And 5 seminars cost me about the price of a mid level TV. Seems like a good trade off to me. Spread the cost out over the 18 month period that it took me to go to those seminars, and it seems cheap to me.

If I got taught to swim by the local lifeguard, I'd expect it to be inexpensive. If Mark Spitz teaches me to swim, I'd expect it to cost a whole lot more. Why shouldn't dog training be the same?

Mike - if I met you I dont remember it. With that said - I dont care to meet you. Frankly I find you insulting. You act like a little-man with a chip on your shoulder.

When Bernhard and Michael come to my home in June I will let him read your post. We dont need a three way conversation. Maybe you missed the part of my earlier email where I said that my business relationship with Bernhard is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and never will be.

I also don't need lectures on breeding or ethics from you. Whatever claim to ethic's you care to make was blown out the window when you sold that poor guy Cricket for a lot of money. You sure made it AFFORDABLE for him to get into the sport of schutzhund and fail.

You even used the fact that Berbhard had the dog for training as part of your sales pitch. Your customer told the people at the seminar.

Cindy and I were at Bernhards house in Germany when she was there - shall I quote Bernhard on his comments on this dog? I think not - not in a public forum.

I suggest you take you CHIP and either move on or button-it-up on this forum. If you have something to say in an open forum stick to training. If you have something to say to me - do it in a private message or face to face.

As a matter of fact, I even sent a young female back with Bernhard to title for me. I liked EVERYTHING about Bernhard's training and still promote his techniques, but I don't like the commercialized way that they have become today.


Mike, don't you sell supplements that you need to promote?? Without getting the word out how much would you sell??
Bernhard sells his skills in seminar instruction. I guess I get the award for starting all this since I brought him over initially after having the oportunity to meet him back in '98. The first seminar was with me, the third on the east coast and the fourth was with me also. I introduced Ed and Bernhard thinking that Ed could help Bernhard popularize his seminar instruction ...something Bernhard had told me he wanted to do...and promote some very good dog training through video productions. Condemning such things might just be an attack on someone you see as a business competitor. You are in dogs for $$. Nothin' wrong with that at all. I hope things are going well because as I see it working dogs need promotion. The working dog is dissappearing in Germany, too few new enthusiasts, too few willing to do the hard work when there are easier ways to acheive dog success. Maybe we can take up some slack and at the same time Bernhard can be a small part of that. His qualifications to do so are exemplary.
You gripe about people making money. I gave away hours and hours of my work to law enforcement, and sometimes I still do if I like the cause or see the need. But, I do expect to be paid for the time away from my home, my wife, my children, and for the aching back, the scars on my body and the damned grey hair, not to mention my expertise in the field.
If ed's expertise is in dog videos great!!! If Bernhards expertise is in schutzhund great!!! I hope they do well and that their relationship is helpful to each other, a bit like an old fashioned barn raising. They will if they are providing what people want. They won't if they suck.