Hey Vancamp

Oh no, I upset you again! Was it you who took my star away? What did I say to deserve that?

I know you hate all show lines and the very thought of mixing working / show in breeding makes you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> but I wasn't advocating mixing the two as they stand right now. If you re-read my post, I said that all breeders should work towards producing the same type of universal dog with the attributes that a GSD is supposed to have. Extremes in both camps should be avoided. I then said that generations down the way, a careful mixing could take place to infuse lines with desirable attribues (outcrossing).

My whole philosophy is to breed GSDs that are capable of working and right now, generally, yes, the working "type" appeals more to me in terms of character / temperament. However, I still stand by what I said about some of those so called "working" dogs that have been bred for a very narrow set of characteristics completely geared around being rank and hard without thought to what other qualities are required to balance these traits and produce, for example, a good police service dog.

In my last post I advocated von Stephanitz' ideology and that he lived a long time ago and the state of our dogs has changed a lot since then but even back then there seemed to be those dogs that worked and those that were paraded around for their "conformation".

Max said then that to breed the best dogs, you should take an excellent working female to a male whose conformation has been fixed by breeding for type. From this union, bitches should be kept and mated to males of the same conformation type as the first.

I don't live in cloud cuckoo land, however, and realise that what I'm saying is pretty idealistic and unlikely to happen given what is happening all over in terms of regulating the breed etc and the attitudes of many breeders but I can hope and I can dream and share those dreams with other knowledgeable people.

What do people think? Can I have my star back?

Just out of curiosity, how many PSD's have you produced in your breeding program? And I don't mean drug dogs. You readily admit that you don't do Schutzhund, yet you have hardly anything good to say about it as a breeding tool.

Last I checked, no suspect was looking to see if the dog had a great topline or any other beautiful conformation before deciding to(or not to run) that is where hardness, courage, and the desire to chase objects counts, not to mention it greatly improves trainability. Ok, so you want a dog to chase a fleeing suspect because he loves you... :rolleyes:

I think it was Ed who said you breed the extremes to get the norm(I don't breed, and probably never will). Outcrossing, only diversifys genetics. It doesn't insure that the dogs in the litters will be uniform.

Now I am not saying that all Max wanted was to have a GSD police dog, but you have to accept that the dog that guides the blind does not need or have the same temperment as the dog chasing a suspect. To suggest that we all breed nice little housedogs, is a bit of a dream if you ask me.

So far as the ratings go, The moderators don't control your stars, the members do.

Oh dear, is Us and UK english so different that I'm causing all these misunderstandings?

Schnauzergirl said:
Just out of curiosity, how many PSD's have you produced in your breeding program? And I don't mean drug dogs. You readily admit that you don't do Schutzhund, yet you have hardly anything good to say about it as a breeding tool.

Reply:
I haven't produced any Police dogs so far - I'm relatively new to breeding. But the police are very interested in our dogs for the future and our breeding philosophy. Round here they have started to import Mals because the GSDs were not good enough.

I don't do schutzhund ONLY because there are NO clubs at all in Wales. I have bought several of Ed's videos on bite training, first steps of defense and recently the Flinks drive and focus one. I together with a few likeminded friends train our dogs using these videos and the great advice on Ed's site and discussion board. If I didn't think schutzhund was a good breeding tool I wouldn't go to these lengths. I have NEVER said anything bad about schutzhund training - where do you get that one from??? :rolleyes:

Schnauzergirl said:
Ok, so you want a dog to chase a fleeing suspect because he loves you...

Reply:
Ha ha ha witty! NO NO NO! What does Flinks say in his video??? "Doing work with your dog which creates a bond, meaning he trusts you is 100% better / more useful than letting him slep with you in your bed"

Yes I want my dog to love, trust and bond with me - don't we all? BUT so that he can take on board the training I am giving him which allows him to chase a fleeing suspect, or take out an advancing one (as my SHOW/herding dog did for me once)

Neither am I saying that a beautiful conformation is more important than hardness and courage - of course it isn't!! But, if your dog needs to go all day, it will soon get tired and therefore be of diminished use if it's topline / angulation is incorrect!

My comment about hardness was against those breeders who breed for hardness / aggression / rank without attempting to balance those attributes with other traits equally important in working dogs such as reliabiity, intelligence, aloofness, capability for independent work.

Schnauzergirl said:
I think it was Ed who said you breed the extremes to get the norm

Reply:
Get real! Extremely bad/undesirable x Extremely bad/undesirable = STUPID! When Ed gets letters saying "should I breed my extremely spooky, nervy bitch?", he doesn't say "Yeah go right on, it's great to breed extremes - make sure you find another really spooky dog to mate her to" He says, "Get the bitch spayed NOW!"

Schnauzergirl said:
but you have to accept that the dog that guides the blind does not need or have the same temperment as the dog chasing a suspect

Reply:
No, but the dog chasing the suspect needs to ALSO have the capability / temperament to lead the blind!!!!!

I don't want to breed nice little house dogs - I thought from my posts that was evident!!!!

The star thing was a toungue in cheek dig at VanCamp - I know how the ratings work.

Sarah BMK...
I commend you on your civility and patience... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In an "ideal" world perhaps it would be nice to have a breed that produced in each litter 1 PSD, 1 schutzhund dog, 1 guide dog, 1 seizure alert dog, 1 SAR dog, 1 flyball/agility dog, 1 sheepherding dog, and 3 pets.
BUT, I think there are too many diverse personalities (people that is) in dog breeding for them all to agree on one "type" for a breed. It happens in hunting dogs too, a division of "type", show being generally more heavily coated (in the coated breeds) and more laid back. Even standard poodles who can now participate in retriever trials, receive titles that honour their hunting past, and get a WC (working certificate) cannot be shown in a sporting/hunting clip (STUPID) in a regular confirmation event. Only in a veteran's class, or brood class. Show "style" wins out. Some breeders though are now producing "birdy" dogs, as well as dogs who can participate in service fields. How many breeds are fussed over, trimmed with scissors, chalked, sprayed, etc. even when the standard clearly states the dog should be shown in a "natural" style.
It makes more sense for "show" people to incorporate/select some dogs for potential working ability, than for "working" people to incorporate "show" dogs into theirs. JMHO.
If you breed "extremes" (either in temperament or physical characteristics) would it not follow that at some point in the future the dogs will be too "extreme"? Just asking.
Some "pet" owners barely get their dogs through basic obedience, how could they possibly cope with a dog who has a "working" temperament.
If GSD show breeders truly adhered to the adage that "form follows function" you would not see these over angulated dogs. Many of these dogs only look good in the "flying trot". When walking they look positively horrid.
As long as there are breeders that will strive to protect and preserve the "working" abilities of some breeds, I think that's all we can hope for.
There is a dog out there for everybody, you just have to look. Again, in an ideal world......................

Have a great holiday - It's been interesting and challenging chatting with you. I'm surprised we are "arguing" because I've agreed with a lot of things you have posted on in the past.

Just one thing: Ask a few REAL police dog handlers and they WILL tell you that their BEST dogs do have the temperament to lead the blind as well as take out a criminal. YES in the same dog! This is why it is so hard to breed the ideal GSD because the mix of drives is soooo hard to balance.

I agree, breeding: extreme high drive x extreme high drive = medium drive but we were talking about so much more than just high drive ween't we - and high drive in what??? prey, defense, fight??

The only thing I have a problem with is extreme humans!!! You must know the ones I mean: The ones who breed mad agressive dogs with no other qualities and the ones that create the market for these breedings. I have no problem with the majority of the dog sporting public and am definately "on their side" so give me a break!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I assure you my intentions are in the right place. Ultimately we are coming from the same place in what we like and don't like about the breed as it stands right now. We only differ in how we believe progress can be made.

Caniche, we have to get you around some working line dogs. You have the wrong idea about how they are to live with. They require a little more excersize and mental stimulation than the showballs, but not outside the realm of what any person that SHOULD own a dog can handle. If you want to tie a dog in the backyard and feed and water it twice a day then ANY German Shepherd is the wrong dog, but working dogs are not that hard to live with. No I wasn't "raised" with them either. I grew up with a westie.

Ok, now I am really leaving... hmmm should I take the laptop with me??? (joking, I am an addict, but not that bad yet)

Sarah, I didn't think we were arguing. I was just posting my opinion that basically you won't get all of the people to agree all of the time, whether the topic is dogs, religion, politics, etc. BUT as long as there were some breeders out there that believe that show doesn't have to equal "extreme", or some breeders that breed for "working" ability then everyone should be able to find the dog they want.

Deanna, I have seen working dogs in demos, but have not had the pleasure of personally spending time with one. I don't doubt that if you choose the right dog and raise it from a puppy even a novice like me would have a great time. I'm still on my first dog, but even now I know what I want in a next dog and pretty much what I want to do with it. My only regret is that Max would have made a great competition obedience dog if I hadn't goofed up, or a terrific agility dog if I had had the time to trial him. My previous situation precluded me from getting a dog that had that kind of intensity. Next time.

I'm Canadian (Ontario). My holiday was on Monday, July 1st (Canada Day). Enjoy your holiday! How can you not take your laptop? Won't you miss us? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:
Mike you're not the first one to tell me that.

But, you should understand my pain, right? Your little female looks like a show shepherd, she isn't?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

LMFAO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
yeah that was low, but you're closer to the truth than you know. Femke's grandsire (on the father's side) is Ico v Ardhaus (you should know who this is, handled by Gary Hanrahan). Ico was an ugly dog (putting it nicely) that some called "the mule". Ico was bred to high drive showlines in a hope of improving conformation. Soooo, Femke is technically 25% highline, but that little girl runs circles around most others that I've seen her age in obedience & tracking, we're really "putting the heat on" in protection.

Had there not been "some" truth in your statement, I probably would've ribbed you back. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />