Jenn, Jenn, Jenn. . . :rolleyes:


Jenn wrote: "If sometimes I click and the dog is rewarded, and sometimes I click and there is no reward, the dog will no longer be nearly as interested in the game and the learning is no longer clear with a known reward for learning behavior."

Jenn also wrote: "The reason the dog starts REALLY getting into the game and wanting to earn the clicks is the RELIABLILITY of knowing that when that sound occurs, they were brilliant and now WILL get the reward.


That is not accurate.

The sound of the click itself becomes a secondary reinforcer. (conditioned reinforcer, right?) Stimuli (clicks) which are initially neutral in emotional value may acquire reinforcing properties as a result of being paired with primary rewarding events (treats). The basic procedure is classical conditioning. The positive emotional response elicited by a primary reward may become associated with a neutral stimulus according the the principle of the anticipatory response.

So, once this happens, we then have a window where the secondary reinforcer, or condidtioned reinforcer, is. . .well. . .reinforcing all by it's own little self. . .even without the treat.

If you never provide the primary reward (treat) again you will still see a GRADUAL decrease in the emotional significance of the secondary reinforcer (click). I believe this would be an aspect of extinction? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The secondary reinforcer will still have significance to the dog for a period of time.

During this period is when the clicker is such a great training tool in my opinion. You don't have to be right next to your dog to provide reinforcement because you DON'T have to provide the primary reinforcer at that moment. It can happen after a delay, or it can happen not at all, if you are using the clicker to reward and mark a behavior. The click itself IS rewarding, that's why it works.


Then after a period of extinction if you treat again right after the click there is a funny little aspect of classical conditioning called spontaneous recovery that saves the day. I don't want to get too far off on this tangent, but spontaneous recovery is the fact that an extinguished response will reappear on a subsequent presentation of a conditioned stimulus after a lapse of time. In our case, presentation of the primary reward brings life back (emotional value) to our secondary reinforcer, the click.

Of course this will depend on how extinct ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> he he) things have become, or how long you clicked and didn't give Fido his damn treat, but in all seriousness you have a window where you can get away without treating every single click. So you CAN click and treat, click and not treak, and click and treat again. The dog will still learn, in fact he might learn better because the trainer can now use this model to his advantage. So, if you are seeing a lag in performance for the click, or slower learning than one would expect, you just start treating again, and on a more regular basis. You went too far. Easily fixed though, treat again.


I personally like to use the click as a "keep going" signal for the dog. I've come to the realization over the years that I suck at training heeling, so in order to make it idiot proof I use the clicker to help reinforce correct position as we go. I don't WANT to offer the primary reinforcer to the dog while heeling, but I do like being able to use a secondary reinforcer to keep the drive up and let 'em know when he's spot on. Then at a point during the pattern I can reward with the ball or food as I see fit.

That can only happen because of what I described above.


So, not really a whole lot to do with teaching focus, but relevent to other comments posted.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

One thing I've been doing without a clicker to teach focus is making my dogs look at me before they gets what they want. So for example, they like to drink from the spigot outside after we have walked. I don't turn it on until they make eye contact with me first. I have been doing this for lots of other behaviors as well, like looking at me before I open the door to let them out etc. So with or without a clicker you can teach focus pretty easily.

Robert Robert Robert, saying I'm not accurate......

Proper use of the clicker does involve HAVING to use a reinforcer AFTER each click. Now what the reinforcer is can be different for each dog and for the different level of training. Food, play, praise, can all work.

From Clicker Solutions 1

 Quote:

The click must be followed by a reinforcer—something the dog is willing to work to obtain. You have a variety of reinforcers available. Some of the most commonly used include:

Food
Toys
Praise, attention
Opportunity to do something the dog wants to do
Opportunity to perform a well-known behavior
In a formal training session you want to get as many repetitions as possible. Food is an excellent reinforcer because it can be cut into tiny pieces and eaten quickly. Toys are also a good reinforcer, but playing with the toy takes time, meaning you get fewer repetitions in a session. Praise and attention are wonderful additions to food or toys, but are often not desired enough by the dog to use alone, particularly in distracting situations. The opportunity to do something else is sometimes the most powerful reinforcer you have.

The most important thing to remember is that the dog determines what is and isn’t a reinforcer in a certain situation. If the dog doesn’t want what you’re offering, it’s not a reinforcer.

And to explain the method (from Clicker Solutions 2

 Quote:

Using the Clicker Correctly

The clicker is a tool. It's not a magic box. It's not a gimmick. Used correctly it enables you to do something that other training methods struggled with: communicate exactly what behavior is desired. The clicker is for teaching new behaviors. Once the dog is freely offering the desired behavior, it's time to fade the clicker and put the reinforcements on a variable schedule.

Think of the clicker as a camera. You want to take a picture of the action that you want repeated. Remember, it's the action that you want to capture, not the end result. For example, to capture the sit, click as the dog lowers his haunches, not after his butt is on the ground.

The click means three things:

• You just did something I like. Click and treat any time the dog is doing something you like. Reinforced behavior occurs more frequently.
  
  
  The behavior is over. The click ends the behavior. If the dog jumps up from the sit immediately after you click, that's okay. Duration is a criteria you can add later.
  
  
  A reinforcement is coming. Always reinforce the dog after clicking. Even if you click accidentally or at the wrong time, reinforce.
  

Additionally, under ways NOT to use the clicker

 Quote:

Don't use the clicker as an attention-getting device or to cue your dog to come to you. Know what? It works. But once your dog understands the real meaning of the click, you'll be reinforcing undesired behavior such as ignoring you or barking at passers-by.


Don't use the clicker solely as a praise marker. Timing counts. Yes, your dog will eventually figure out what you want in spite of your bad timing, but he'll learn MUCH faster if he can count on it to mark behavior.


Don't use the clicker as a Keep Going Signal. The click always ends the behavior. If you are teaching a multi-part behavior such as a retrieve or the dog walk in Agility, and you want to indicate that one part was correct without ending the behavior, simply substitute a word like "Good" in place of the click.

Not saying Roberts method isn't working for him. Thankfully these smart dogs of ours, especially those with a good work ethic, can work out what we are trying to do, even if we aren't making it easy for them!

And another good place for those of you wanting to do this right is on Clicker Solutions 3

 Quote:

The Keys to Successful Clicker Training
As the word about positive training techniques spreads, more and more people are giving clicker training a try. It's a terrific technique, because when done correctly, it enables the trainer to do the one thing that was missing in other methods: communicate that the dog has done something that you like.

Unfortunately, many people don't do it correctly. They use the clicker wrong, or don't reinforce after each click, and their results aren't very spectacular. They get frustrated and quit. Worse, they tell people, "It's a gimmick. It doesn't work."

Clicker training isn't a gimmick. It does work. But you must do it correctly. The following keys will help you unlock the secret of successful clicker training.

Key #1: Use an effective reinforcer.
A common complaint is, "My dog isn't food motivated." If your dog weren't food motivated, he would be dead. Your dog may not be hungry or may not like what you're offering, but that's not the same as not being food motivated.

If you free-feed your dog, change to scheduled feedings. Why should a dog work for a treat if it can eat for free whenever it wants? Still not motivated? Take a look at your dog's waistline. You may be overfeeding. Even steak isn't appealing when you're full. Cut back on the amount your feeding at meals and feed it as training treats. Train before meals, so your dog is hungry.

Remember, also, the DOG determines what is an effective reinforcer. If the dog doesn't want what you're offering, it's not a reinforcer! You may want to use kibble, but if your dog prefers garlic chicken, well....

To figure out what your dog likes, get a supply of a variety of treats. Present them to your dog two at a time and make a note of which he eats first. Through the process of elimination, you can figure out exactly what foods your dog most likes. Believe it or not, I know a dog whose favorite training treat is a spritz of water in the mouth and another who adores green beans! Most dogs prefer smelly treats like cheese or liver.

Key #2: Use the reinforcer correctly.
Once you have an effective reinforcer, another key to successful clicker training is using the reinforcer correctly. A reinforcer is presented AFTER the behavior, not used to induce it. If you regularly use food to induce the behavior - holding up a treat to get your dog to come to you, for example - the treat becomes part of the context of the behavior. The dog won't perform the behavior without the treat present because THAT'S HOW IT WAS TRAINED.

Some people use food lures when they are first teaching a dog a new behavior. If you choose to do this, fade the food - lure with just your empty hand - after only a few repetitions. The more repetitions you do with the food present, the more dependent on the food the behavior becomes.

If possible, keep the food off of your body entirely. Put it in a dish nearby, and actually walk to get it after each click. Work on attention from the very beginning, so the dog learns to focus on you instead of the treat. If the dog is staring at the clicker or the treats, don't click until he's focused on you again.

Key #3: Use the clicker as an event marker, not a reward marker.
The third key to clicker training success is using the clicker correctly. Timing is everything. The proper time to click is at the exact moment the dog does what you want -- like taking a picture of the event.

You don't understand a word of what I just wrote, do you?


Jenn wrote: "Not saying Roberts method isn't working for him. Thankfully these smart dogs of ours, especially those with a good work ethic, can work out what we are trying to do, even if we aren't making it easy for them!"

Thats offensive, to say the least.


You think I'm wrong? I understand why you would, as most clicker sites and books (even Karen Pryor's) all but butcher the science they are actually trying to push. You could check up on what I'm saying by reading any number of texts on learning theory, especially classical conditioning.

You can quote as many of the lame little clicker sites and pet dog training for idiot books that you want, it doesn't change the fact that clicker training is working because of the laws outlined in classical conditioning and operant conditioning. It is firmly grounded in learning theory, and there's actually tons and tons of scientific research and proof outlining the rates of extinction and how CRs or CSs can be used for teaching behavior or for behavior modification.


Frankly, till you understand the science behind the training you are quoting and suggesting to people, you don't know what you are talking about.

Jenn, check your PMs.

clicker training is working because of the laws outlined in classical conditioning and operant conditioning. It is firmly grounded in learning theory, and there's actually tons and tons of scientific research and proof outlining the rates of extinction and how CRs or CSs can be used for teaching behavior or for behavior modification.
Well we agree with that.

You can quote as many of the lame little clicker sites and pet dog training for idiot books that you want, Though not with that!

And I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You are insulting trainers who use the clicker well in their training venues. Their methods do work and you saying they don't know what they are talking about is ridiculous.

I agree and cite trainers that have trained many dogs properly with the clicker, are world re-known in dog training, and use the methods described in the books/studies you have mentioned. It works for them, it works for me, and is written very clearly and precisely. And until you can cite me, from a DOG TRAINING site specifically your points, I'm sticking with what I know has worked for me and thousands of other educated dog trainers.

And I never meant to be offensive to you, I always try to make my points without personal slurs against the poster. What's the point? I'd rather educate then insult. I was complimenting you on how smart your dog was and what a high work ethic he must have.

Wow I didnt mean to start a war on clicker training here.

Well I just have one question... it says to click the moment the dog does what you want... not to mark reward but behavior (right?) So if Im getting him to look at me longer I wait to click until I have him looking at me as long as I want right... 3 seconds into the stare... 5 seconds... whatever Im trying to achieve right? So if I click after 5 seconds of stare then treat am I clicking for the reward since he made eye contact with me 5 seconds ago? Or does he realize Im clicking because he stared at me for so long?

So with any excersize you want the dog to do, for example a platz... say the dog knows what platz means... but gets up right after you click. (only down for 2 or 3 seconds) Do you still click the minute the platz or do you click after hes been in a down for a disired amount of time... say 10 seconds? When he hears that click does he understand its because he downed and stayed down, or does he just think treat? I guess what I mean is does he realize that Im asking him to stay in a longer down, or does he only realize treat?

Sorry for the lengthy post but just wanted to clear some questions up. So far the clicker has helped with the focus. He is focusing longer and more often for what he wants. (I think I was bad with timing using just my voice) I use the clicker and make him focus on whatever it is he wants... whether were playing fetch and he wants me to throw the kong, or if Im asking him to platz, sit etc.

Here's a link to a great thread on this board about clicker training and learning theory a while back....
http://leerburg.server294.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=109;t=000005

Jenn wrote: "I was complimenting you on how smart your dog was and what a high work ethic he must have."


While insinuating that I'm wrong, and that in spite of my training the dog is learning. I'd rather you just have the guts to come out and say I'm wrong. Disagree with some integrity, don't sugar coat it. I have no respect for that.


I'm not challenging the effectiveness of the methodologies offered by most clicker trainers, I'm just offering an additional use of the clicker that most clicker gurus are not presenting to people, most likely because they don't want to confuse folks and you have to be very aware of your dog's level of motivation during extinction. . .and most pet idiots are not aware of much at all. (Then there are the clicker followers who wouldn't understand the concepts I'm talking about and will just say I'm wrong.)

I know full well that what I posted contradicts most of the clicker trainers in the country, but it doesn't contradict the science.

I don't think you are experienced enough or educated enough to grasp what I outlined. So I guess I'll leave it with this-

It works, it's correct application of the science, and the clicker gurus are wrong if they say it isn't.

In Pamela J. Reids book EXCEL-ERATED LEARNING, she uses the analogy of comparing a clicker to a battery. "Each time you click and treat, you charge. Each time you click with no treat, you lose a bit of charge." This says to me that I can use a clicker without reward at least 30% of the time without losing much value.