I agree that Social aggression can be genitic. But In the right hand and with proper upbringing I have found that you can work a problem dog in SAR with out problems. I have a Male that had the potential to become very aggressive. at 4 months he was charging the dog at people and other dogs. Living in a kennel like I do that is not a behavior that I can have. I socialized the dog in my classes and with people and yes we even do protection training. Now, Im not saying that he will play with other dogs and I dont let him. But I do trust him not to ever go after another dog. As for people, I have raised him in a social enviroment and he loves his monthly visits to a local daycare but is still a great protection dog. I have worked with may aggressive dogs any do feel that the behavior can be curved and the dogs can work side by side with other dogs. But as for just playing, well thats another thing. I am a strong beleaver that a dog is what you make it. But you must always remember that the genetics is the foundation of your dog and if you dont raise the dogs right and work with them on it from day one you will run into problems.

The best advice that I could give is to do lots of obedience around other dogs from a young age and I know that all 7 of my dogs will leave other dogs alone even when lunged at. As for my decoys. thats a nother story.

Talk soon
Dave

Hi David

Here are just a few thoughts on this...True Social Aggression is very often misunderstood and this label put on dogs; which may not be accurate...When you say your dog had the potential to be very aggressive--is in no way conclusive that this was true social aggression in the first place. This 'potential aggressiveness' is statistically more likely to originate from dominance, or sharpness, or defense, or simple puberty etc...True social aggression is much more rare than aggression stemming from other sources. A socially aggressive dog doesn't 'go looking for a fight'...but he'll never back down from one.

These dogs/this behavior can be 'triggered' simply by things like being looked at, being brushed, being petted, being leaned over, being given a command, touching their muzzle, control as in OB can trigger it, and punishment most definitely will (no matter how minor), or being manipulated in a very non-invasive manner, or simply pulling back on a lead when going for a walk, or ironically with overly friendly social human encounters/overtures...A socially aggressive dog can exhibit any combination or all of these.

True social aggression is entirely genetic and although in expert hands; this type of dog can be trained to tolerate these situations (as mentioned above)...he (I say he as this type of aggression is almost exclusively male); he will never 'like' them or actually 'enjoy' them or find true 'pleasure' in any of them. Because of this; it's unlikely that such a dog would be reliable or consistent in a venue such as SAR or Therapy work. It always comes back to genetics. No environment, no matter how 'ideal' is going to change the genetic blueprint.

I will go as far as to say that if the dog you're speaking of now 'loves going to daycare' then perhaps it wasn't social aggression in the first place but rather a lack of exposure or juvenile insecurity or another type of aggression etc...Again I'm not saying I'm right...but just exploring other possibilities given the behavioral aspects of true social aggression.

But I guess my question is that when you purchased this pup...why did you select one with aggressive traits if you were planning on doing therapy or SAR? Just curious.

Anyways, I hope I haven't offended you as that wasn't my intention. It's a great topic and one I truly enjoy discussing.

As well here is a link which explains some aspects of social aggression w/respect to working dogs. There are many more on the net for anyone wishing to research this topic more extensively.

Social Aggression half way down the page...

Regards,

Brigita

This thread is close enough to the Police threads, so I'll jump in here. A socially aggressive dog, IMO will not make a good Police dog even though it may be capable of performing Police related Tasks. A dog that has to be watched every second because of its aggressiveness has a narrow window, or limited type of work it can do safely. A keen handler, as Howard pointed out, is a must or its lawsuit time. This will be a good PPD but one must be carefull. I personally like dogs like this because I get a kick out of watching them and trying to figure out what makes them tick. I also think that they will engage for real when the chips are down. After all, isn't that what he is there for?

Who the hell ever said that an SAR dog needs social aggression or needs to be in a controlled environment?

This is rediculous!! We're talking protection work, protection dogs, dogs who NEED aggression to stand up to a determined human attacker.

There is no shortage of all-round decent working dogs that can do SAR who don't have the aggression and drives for manwork. TRUST ME, they are freaking everywhere you look and are bred in nearly every working GSD litter on the planet. . .unfortunately. The aggressive work dog is the one that is rare.


OF COURSE AN SAR DOG DOESN'T NEED TO BE SOCIALLY AGGRESSIVE. . . .WTF??????????


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I think I agree with Knauf, I don't see a dog with a ton of social aggression as being the ideal work dog. . .I do see that dog as an important genetic breeding dog.

SOME types of aggression are absolutely necessary for a bite dog, but in order to get SOME you usually have to breed to a dog with A LOT.


These types are great protection dogs, can be fun work dogs for a handler willing to maintain vigilance, and good breeding prospects IMO.

I'm seeing more and more that you have to breed to the extreme to get the middle ground in most cases.

>>I'm seeing more and more that you have to breed to the extreme to get the middle ground in most cases.


Completely agree. And socially aggressive dogs definitely are a 'must' in the genepool.

However, here's a question:

If the vast majority of dogs with high fight drive are also socially aggressive and there's definitely a correlation between the two; then to desire the fight drive one also has to encompass social aggression...agreed?

To have, desire, or expect fight drive without the other is not realistic..they appear to go hand in hand.--not directed at you...just thinking out loud <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You certainly have something there.

To get dogs that have the traits necessary to do real manwork and to carry on the traits necessary to do manwork. . .I think they must have elements of social aggression.

Call it competitive aggression than, because that is what it is. That way its name is more clear as a useful trait in (i'd say any) working dog. Shure there must be a way to redirect (harnes) that kind of aggression towards something usefull for SAR people for instance. I think that intesity alone is very worth the trouble. And i don't mean competitive in purely sport way...

As for being difficult to handle, whell you don't give 300+ HP car to 18yo (should not really <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ).

Now, please clear this for me someone;
if social aggression(or competitive) is genetic (hardwired into dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) and by means of it there is strong urge to, among other things, start dueling fights (to prove its own position within pack) than fight drive is part of social aggressive behaviour. Right?

Sorry for any misunderstanding, but Vancamp is right. This is a protection thread and this is a protecion topic. My whole intention was for this to be directed toward protecion dogs. I dont have any experience in SAR or any of the above mentioned so I wont comment. But I will say that you need to go to another thread because this is not for you SAR people and I dont want this topic to get flushed again.

Brigita: your posts are great, not saying others' arent, because they are, but yours are very helpful to me and make alot of sense. You seem to know what you are talking about and understand this behavior.

Vancamp: I too, agree with Knauf with respect that a dog with high levels of the aggression we are talking about are not the ideal working dog. I think of the ideal working dog to be able to do ANY kind of work. This is just not the case with an aggressive dog. Most of these dogs do not do well in the sport or any other work that involves socialization with people.To clear things up a little I going to throw out a made up scenerio: Suppose you have a handler who purchased a dog for the sole purpose of becoming a protection dog. Now going with the definitions We have so far on social aggression, we also have a dog that has this. He is dominant with other dogs always trying to establish leadership, and also has this type of aggression with humans. Now we know this is not going to be the same kind of aggression with humans, because if you had a dog that was always going to be dominant and aggressive with humans there would only be a couple of places this dog would end up. But the dog had an edge to him and was suspicious all of the time. This to me, sounds like a candidate I would have as a PP dog, No exceptions. This kind of dog would have to be in a controlled environment all of the time, but under the circumstances this is the only way. You wouldnt have a dog that can run loose with people, but you would have a great PP dog IMO. I also agree that to get some aggression you have to breed dogs with alot. I see the sport people who claim to breed dogs with lots of fight drive for the sport, but do not have the time or tolerance to deal with the responsibility or consequences(if one is not careful) of a dog with ample amounts of social aggression. After reading Brigita's posts and the articles she posted, It makes perfect sense that these two things(fight drive and social aggression) directly corrolate with each other. If you are going to have a dog that will really protect and never back down, this can only be good genetics combined with the appropriate training. And good genetics in my eyes for this work is already naturally present in the dog with the types of dominance we discussed.We can already see a fine line between the Show lines, American Crap lines, and the working lines. I think more should be done to divide the sport working lines with the real life working lines.

Or is it the other way around as Dr. Raiser has to say: "The fundamental component of fighting drive is the active part of the aggressive drive, social aggression."?

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