A lot of times it takes a while for the dog to realize that is going to get shocked if he doesn't out. Once he learns what turns the collar off, he will begin to listen to your words instead of waiting for the shock. What notch on the collar are they using to make him release from the bite?

Sorry,Im not forsure what your asking, to answer Id be guessing what your probably talking about.

I was asking what level they had the e-collar turned up to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thats what I "assumed" you were asking.Tonight the collar wasnt charged so we didnt use it.Im usually more involved with the tracking,narcs,and the developing the bite work on the newer dogs and working my personal dogs.In the past when they were using the e-collar on him I didnt check to see.They use a Tri Tronics on him.Im a Dogtra person.I could better understand their settings on my Dogtra.Tonight I was more involved with this dog because they didnt have the collar charged and I didnt realize just how bad his out was until tonight.I felt dissapointed that I couldnt come up with something that showed promise without the use of the e-collar,so I brought it here.All sugestions are appreciated.

Eric wrote
"My only concern with the other method is that he my be a very hard-tough dog that will only take the correction as more of a fight/challenge and fight harder. Or that there will always be the struggle of you having to force him out."

I've seen this reaction when ineffective corrections are given. It has never failed w/ any of our dogs.

The beauty is that they do learn that it's fun to out. That's why you're rewarding quickly w/ another bite. The last bite the decoy slips the sleeve and the dog gets to carry (big win).

Just from a few snips of info, this dog sounds a little locked up in prey.

I think you have a few problems. Inconsistant correction methods mess things up. Stim one night, then no stim, prong but not hard enough. . .

The dog could have learned that whatever he fights through, eventually he will win. (i.e. the only time he outs is when the sleeve is slipped) When I used the EC for out work, that collar didn't come off the dog for 7 weeks in training. Every single time correction. . .every single time correction. Playing around with some correction here and there isn't going to help. If the collar isn't charged don't train.

Will the dog get after a decoy without a sleeve on? Just civil?

I think you need to go to a two pronged attack. . .or in this case a reward method and e-collar method.

Use a long line, very secure. Have the decoy agitate the dog at the end of the line. Then comes the bite and the decoy will fight with some intensity, letting the dog get lots of reward out of it. (what that means will be different for each dog)

The decoy will pull the dog out to the end of the line and the handler will secure the line and brace the dog as much as possible with his body. The idea is for the dog to be streched out at the maximum distance so he can't self reward on the sleeve. Countering, thrashing, pulling. . .

Then the decoy freezes, braces the sleeve with both hands if necessary and steps just to the limit of the line, without giving to much tension on the line. (you are not pulling the dog off, just at the end of manuverability) Keeping the dog higher on the sleeve helps, standing is more uncomfortable than not. Handler must move forward and control dog so it doesn't spring up and bite or anything else weird. Handler is leash man on the tie out.

The decoy stops all fighting and sits still, neutral, keeping the dog from self rewarding and basically boring the dog to tears on the sleeve for a good minute or two. (sounds like this dog will still be on the sleeve) You have to make sure he doesn't just drop off by himself without a command so you have to read his desire to keep on the bite.

Everything is dead calm and quiet. Handler then commands Auuuuuuuuuusssssss and on the SSSSS part after the long command gives a pretty serious stim. The second the dog comes off, the decoy breaks at a sideways run to trigger another bite (I always give the command to bite at the same time) while stepping into the range of the dog. Timing is very fast and critical, you have to reward the dog with instand animation and an rewarding fight and slip of the sleeve for outing. Then he carries the sleeve. At that point I would begin civil agitation and/or prey guarding to get that dog to forget about the sleeve and focus on the man. Have him drive the guy off and leave the field without the sleeve.

Eventually the dog learns two things as you progress. One, out means reward. . . two, out means avoidance of PAIN if done fast enough.

I progress with shorter outs and eventually outs off a still fighting decoy. . .still with the collar.

Later after the dog will out off the man with consistency you will have to move to a recall before he gets a second bite, or down, or what ever control methods you want to use to keep him from always making the immediate re-bite. Instead of just outing to get the bite, he has to out and down, or out and fuss, or out and ??? If he breaks those rules. . .stim before he bites and if he re-bites dirty no fight and stim.

The dog is learning two ways. The behavior that brings the reward, while at the same time the behavior that avoids the pain. Less conflict in the dog to out if he learns out means fight will begin again.

This is how I have done it, but using a prong. Now I do it like this using the collar with much better results.

Maybe someone with more experience can sharpen up this description for me, or give a better idea.

Thank you Robert
The process that you described is what I was trying to explain (too simplistically I might add). We have used the e-collar or prong with a correction into the sleeve. The rebite or the timing of the bite is what is so critical in order for the dog to make the association. You and Eric describe important points that I left out such as avoiding eye contact and allowing the sleeve to go dead before the out.

There is certainly nothing wrong with the self out which is what I think Eric described. In the hands of a few competent people I have yet to see the technique that you described fail even with toughest of dogs.

On side note I teach our dogs to out and down. So we throw in a down then a bite. The handler says, "Standstill, aus, platz" In roughly two sessions the dog is outing and downing on the standstill command.

David,

Yes I was talking about a carry. I really like what Robert described above. If I could do it with correction I would prefer that. Sometimes that’s not possible. The only way I would change what Robert said above is I wouldn't want to shock the dog as he was loosening. IMO I would be punishing him for letting go. He had already begun the behavior I wanted. I would prefer to start the shock 2 seconds after my first command to out. I want the dog to think I'm a really good predictor of the shock. Then I would have the shock continuous until he let go (negative reinforcent for out) at which time I would discontinue the shock and immediately give him a bite reward (positive rienforcement for out)with a really good fight slip and carry.

Good Luck

Eric

Eric

I meant to say if I could do it without correction I would prefer that. The more the dog can do because he wants to the better. My first choice would be to try and manipulate his drives through less aggitation and less stimulating his competetitive drives. Often this will calm the dog enough to start teaching that he controls the game and the out brings more fun.

You might try 2 agitators. Give the out command and do a handler attack, have the first agitator stop moving. Call the dog back and let him make the bite on the second agitator. After the dog starts to get it vary the timing on the second attack so it doesn't occur until the dog outs. Then move to getting the dog back and send him back for the first agitator. I would add the down after the out is solid. That is an awfully submissive position to put the dog in right after a fight, particularly with a fairly new dog. I would save that for more advanced work.

What we do is combine the out with a recall. the dog recalls after the out so that it isn't standing right there for a potential re-bite. You can also send the dog back for a bite half way back on some occasions. If we are going to drop the dog off and keep it there we drop the dog to a watch, rather than an out. Once the dog is out of range for making a bite you could add in the down so the dog has some room if it is re-attacked so that it has an opportunity to react prior to the agitator reaching them.