You also won't answer a single question posed to you in any of my two replies. If you don't want to be convinced, fine, but at least answer the questions put to YOUR view on the matter as it was asked. Perhaps you have a point of view that might convince me otherwise.

For now you just say, no, I don't care take your ball and go home. As you give out opinions to new trainers and handler on the list, perhaps a better explanation for those you reply to on the matter would do some good.

If you don't want to debate the point, that's fine, we all can read between the lines then on that type of reply.

Somewhere really training PSDs....in CT.

Dear Mr. Iowa

May I call you, IN.

In that perfect world or a sport trial that deep firm never move grip is dead on the money. But, big but, this is not case. Sure Josh will strive for a deep bite yet when the going gets a little rough and a real street PSD is getting some lumps. Guess what he will do if he is of the correct character.

He will begin to fight back in the manner to which he is being fought and if that means doing a jaw dance on said location, he will do it.

Now stop trying to (excuse the pun :rolleyes: ) josh us and get to a couple of questions Mr. lewis posed for you Sir.

Jerry

Nothing like hearing from the Handler/Trainers that have been THERE!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Interesting viewpoints on grips. Josh says,”grip has little to do with confidence and much to do with training.” Some dogs you could train forever and they will never have a full grip, just as some always have out problems. I think good police dogs are born with the proper instincts and controlled with training. A dogs grip tells me a lot about the temperament, confidence, and instincts of a dog. Josh says “Why should I "fix" a problem that has no measure in reality?” So, then it is a problem??? Dogs show a lot of instincts when it comes to target, strike, and grip, regardless if your training for the sport or the street. Every trainer has their way, it doesn’t mean the other way is wrong.

Im glad there have been several replies to my topic however Im not for sure why the post have become more like attacks on Dennis Hasely.I was taught that full bites are directly related to the dogs confidence in the situation.But my concern is dogs that are not sleeve oriented but arm oriented. After looking at Josh's website and Cudahays website I would be very interested in hearing their ideas on this question.The dogs I am talking about have been on the street for a few years. I didnt train them however I have been training them now for the past 7 months.I have taking care of several problems in the dogs but now I want to get them(some of them) past the arm focus problem.I dont forsee leg bites as being difficult but Id like to them bite any thing,like back, thighs,groin(you know what I mean). Could they have been biting arms for so long it will be hard to get any more out of them than just adding legs?

Sorry guys I don’t take my ball home I dont need to. I am just busy.

---- You mean to tell me it's OK with you that a dog takes equipment from a decoy as a reward? ---

“As for rewards, isn't the reward of the bite and fight the reward not the equipment?” Yes for a good finished dog it is. – One of the problems of slanting off topic some. Sorry for the confusion.

“You mean to tell me it's OK with you that a dog takes equipment from a decoy as a reward?”

YEP – for a novice dog. Hidden sleeve work is not slipped as you know but rewarding a young or beginner dog is fine. If you don’t think it is then you are telling me every dog that has a bite sleeve or leg sleeve reward by slipping it cannot do street work and do it well.

It is just one step. Where is the problem in this? Getting the dog to hit a hidden sleeve and a bite suit latter is not a problem with dogs trained this way.

You said not novice dogs correct? Why would you do this??????? ---

----I said we are not talking novice dogs here because Morris was not. My comment was to clarify the level of the dog’s experience in David’s original post. My latter comment was not novice dogs but the bite building process I use.

About the fullness of the bite…

Again - I disagree with your premise that depth and grip of a bite do not correlate to confidence.

Maybe a better way saying how I really think about it would be: The depth and grip of a bite correlates to the internal balance of drives both prey and defense. But it goes further into the dog’s psychology because it also deals with differences in hectic and focused nerves. The combination of these drives in dominating order affect the dogs willingness to engage and fight to either ‘win’ or self preserve depending on the dog' training, temperament once he does engage.

Saying something is wrong doesn’t make it so.

I was not criticizing non-full but hard hitting dogs on the working as K9s on the street. Clearly, in a street situation the dog will not always get the full-mouth bite but there is nothing wrong with him doing it when the opportunity arises. I am interested in learning but what will I learn or gain others reading by laying down about something I feel is fundamental?

The last question has been answered already. Here is a better but perhaps more damning answer and REAL LIFE answer for you.

So snap. Back to reality…

The bite on the street does matter in the public's eye and in the Department of Corrections arena. Lawsuits and sympathy from juries because Billy-Badass Perp was torn severely 3 times requiring more medical treatment (cost to county or state) Oh and Biff the cop hating lawyer is on the line to litigate civilly and thinks the dog has been trained to do the most harm not for effect but to “punish” the bad man who was after all just so scared he couldn’t move.

So a dog biting with only canines can get the job done but then again so does the full gripping dog. Displacement of pressure minimizes the downward force thus less of a chance of ripping like a knife vs. the vice like grip with two puncture holes.

We all know it does not always happen so lets not get silly about it. It is still better in my opinion for an officer to be able to stand up and say his bite work practices are aimed at minimal force while achieving maximum results.

Dog need to be taught the foundation from the bottom up. Once a dog has been habituated to upper body bites then it is almost never going to happen in a stand up bite to see the dog go lower body. The dog has already begun to fixate on the bad guys eyes thus the upper focus.

In this day and age of litigation not too many units that are arm trained will direct a change in the way bites are taken.

Logic tells me that a dept would work the arm dogs out of the system through normal retirement and when the new recruit k9 are brought in then the needs in the foundation work given to the new dogs will change.

PSD training is not rocket science. Police dogs track and bite. How they were imprinted in the foundation work is almost a given to remain as the way the dog performs provided the dog is getting good consistant follow up work to keep the kinks flat.

I hear what is being asked here about switching from upper arm based bites to as been suggested legs and groin.

Not sure how many PSD trainers would admit to training a service dog to do groin bites. Man a legal beagle would carve that one up fast in court.

Let me give you an example of just how hard it is to do this type of a switch.

Many years ago within our club a woman joined with a top Sch III GSD. A dog that was trained and did very well in trials in Germany before being exported first to the USA and then here to Canada.

But, we were not a Sch Club. We do high end Ringsport predominently. This person was determined that we had to teach the dog to bite as she has seen on tape of regular ring dogs on the legs.

I tried to humour this new member and attempt the switch. Not likely, the dogs original good sch training overpowered any attempt to do the switch. The best we could get to switch locations was to have the dog take inner arm as against the outside.

In fact when we tried to refuse the arm bites by holding the arms in then the dog simply blew past and came back from the rear to finaly take the arm bite which by this time was begining to become confused.

Point being, what was imprinted disorientated the dog with the new attempts to change.

7 or 8 months after all this started with a very good GSD Sch III at the first and subsequent trials. The dog attained the titles we set out to acieve as a club but all the work to come lower was for naught as the dog bit the inner arm till the day she died so to speak.

Jerry

Maybe alot of muzzle work would have changed that Jerry.