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Sounds fearful and not sound.

Not major issues though. Keep him away from other dogs and socialize the snot out of him around people.

What more could you want of a Mastiff?

thanks for the straight talk and explanation of how dominance/submission can combine in the same dog.

however, i'm not sure your meaning of your last comment. correct mastiff temperament is that they are confident and at ease around all people and in all situations. so, i could want a great deal more. temperament was my whole reason for returning to this usually laid-back, sweet-natured, gentle, easy-going breed. they are usually the most trustworthy of dogs. ben is my fourth mastiff.

does everyone here think i should keep him away from other dogs, since he loves them so much? i wouldn't let him get close to another strange dog in a leashed situation, because that triggers him.

but he does enjoy going on long hikes with my friends and their dogs.

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i'm asking if he can be both dominant AND submissive. and, if his aggression is fear-based or dominance-based, and if it is possible for BOTH to coexist in the same dog, depending on the situation and whether the aggression is directed at a dog or a human.

I think Robert answered this one.

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so are you saying my problem is because he doesn't recognize me as the pack leader?

I don't know without seeing the dog's behavior. Over the years I have seen certain problems with dogs correct themselves when the dog learns it's proper position in the pack.

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what MORE could i be doing to get him to see me as pack leader?

Here is a good article to read on that subject: http://www.leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

"what is confusing to me is this: if the attacks from other dogs DID cause fear-based aggression, then why on earth would it be directed towards people? and why would he continue to be happy and excited to see other dogs?"

Because the attacks from other dogs are not the root of this problem - it's genetic. Check Robert's second post.

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were i in your shoes on your camping trip, i would have simply stepped in front of my dog with my arms extended to give the woman a strong non-verbal signal that the dog is dangerous.

You're probably right but I am trying to do some controlled socializing and I had no idea the lady was going to "hover and hug" until it was too late....

thanks mike, we must have cross-posted as i did respond to robert's post.

i've read the ground work article. do you honestly think that a three year old dog should return to not being petted by any other family members? we no longer have a crate for him; he outgrew it long ago, but i do tie him to me with a leash so his movements are dependent on mine. and i use dominance touches with him that were taught to me by a behaviorist. (pressing down on his shoulders, for example).

he is already very submissive with us.

if this is genetic, as you say, then would feeling confident that i'm his leader prevent him from fear aggressing? i would think not.

i have to, sadly, agree that he is mentally unsound (physically, he is a dream come true). i probably should have sent him back when the breeder offered to take him and refund my money, but i am deeply attached to him, he IS a great backpacking dog, and having had no prior experience with a fear-aggressive dog, i have not had a very clear picture of just what it is i am dealing with.

i've also been hoping it wasn't genetic. this means he will never be trustworthy, which means he can't participate fully in our lives, which means i'm not getting what i was looking for when i bought him.

thems the breaks, i guess. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

perhaps i made the mistake of thinking that breed determines temperament. he's nothing at all, temperamentally, like my previous three mastiffs.

Just for safety reasons, you may want to consider a wire basket muzzle or similar, long-wear muzzle for when your dog is around other people. No, it doesn't solve your problems, but it will at least prevent a bite.

I would probably think about neutering this dog. He may not be able to deal with his environs, but you seem to be handling him well. I have had dominant/insecure type dogs in the past.

definitely things to consider, and i have been.

would you tell me more about your experience with dogs like this?

jeff, i'm wondering why you are recommending neutering. is it because you think it might help settle him down? or is it because you don't believe in keeping dogs intact if they aren't suitable for breeding?

if the former, i wonder what the consensus is here on whether or not neutering might improve this dog's temperament. he is 3 1/2 years old.

i don't see much reason to neuter him to avoid breeding. he doesn't have the opportunity to come into contact with females in heat, and he doesn't display any behavioral problems related to being intact, like roaming or humping or getting lathered up, etc.

i was talking with a friend who is very animal savvy last night, and asked her her impressions of ben when we've been out walking. she says he seems "worried" all the time. other people have said the same thing.

perhaps i'm not a strong enough leader for this dog. but d--n, i am usually very good at that, so, maybe his needs for leadership are well beyond the ordinary. or maybe it wouldn't make any difference.

what does a chronically "worried" dog need?

thanks for your reply, jeff.

thus far, the dog has been kept intact because he is from a very rare line that the breeder has been struggling to keep going without resorting to unhealthy or untested lines.

before the behavioral issues came to the forefront, she was interested in using him for her next step with her program, which was going to be an outcross to another line she has been developing from england.

she insists on all health tests being passed, and ben has passed all with flying colors. he's also a great physical specimen, fits the standard, has lots of endurance and physically sound, in a breed that often suffers from lack of soundness.

she might still be interested in him, i don't know. for all i know, she may think the behavioral issues were caused by me. she might still think that even with his temperament issues, he offers the breed enough that he would be worth using with the right bitch. i don't know. at this point, i think if she brought it up again, i'd discourage it. she hasn't seen him since he was 12 weeks old and so she will have to rely on my judgment of him.

in any event, i didn't acquire him to be part of a show or breeding program but as a companion, pet, and personal protection while alone in the mountains.

i have no objection to neutering him if there is a decent chance of it helping with his issues. i don't want to put him through surgery that is unnecessary, however, since there is nil chance that he will sire a litter unless i arrange it. (i.e. neutering him has nothing to do with reducing the number of unwanted, unplanned, or badly-bred pups in the world.)

this discussion on this forum is the first time i've had a clear idea of what i am dealing with, and i'm still absorbing that information. i'm not sure i should accept any assessment as definitive from people who haven't actually met the dog, but right now i am tending to agree with those who say he is unsound and *potentially* dangerous.

just to be clear, jeff: are you saying that you've had a number of mature males whose fear-aggression was reduced by neutering? how many?

and are you saying that it more often does help than not? how many weren't helped? what ages were these dogs?

i'd like more opinions on neutering ben--anyone?

he's a huge dog, mastiffs are very sensitive to general anesthesia, and surgery always makes me nervous. i need a good reason to do it.

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Also the fact that you are not seeing definate outward signs of the dog attacks, they are there right in front of you. He is able to inhibit some of his responses, but the build up occurs and then you see the wierdness.

perhaps i didn't explain myself well. i DO see it coming. i do see the build up of his responses (i am watching him like a hawk all the time, to the point that it can be exhausting). what i'm trying to say is i don't know WHY he is being triggered by the people and dogs that trigger him.

i am watching him all the time so that if i see the first early warnings from him, i can walk away from the situation before it escalates. sometimes even moving away from the objects of his aggression doesn't work, and he goes nuts anyway.

interestingly, it's often a man that i feel wierd about encountering, so he may be picking up on my signals.

hm, i will have to think about that some more.

it's also sometimes triggered by other dogs who seem very benign to me.

I couldn't tell you an exact figure. Looking back I should have kept track. It is not a small figure though, guessing around over 50? At any rate I could care less about neutering to prevent unwanted puppies. People have been hawking that for years and it hasn't done a thing. It's not the puppies that are so unwanted, it's the older version that doesn't magically conform to people's Walt Disney expectations. Anyway, I think there is a good chance that neutering will help. If the breeder was all into breeding this dog I think she would have put it in her contract.

One of the other things to consider is, if you have a pretty good idea of when this is going to happen, you could step up the correction for being a jerk, and get him to focus on you.

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At any rate I could care less about neutering to prevent unwanted puppies. People have been hawking that for years and it hasn't done a thing. It's not the puppies that are so unwanted, it's the older version that doesn't magically conform to people's Walt Disney expectations

Jeff, it's comments like that that keep the dog rescues busy, and yes, aggressive spay/neuter programs have dramatically decreased the numbers of unwanted dogs in the shelter systems.

And as for the crack about unwanted puppies, by all means, go visit some of the shelters in the Carolinas that I deal with, Gaffney euthanizes dozens of PUPPIES every week.

Please use a bit of thought when making comments like that on a board open to the public, there's a lot of idiots out there who think that'll be ok to slap two of the same breed together and produce a litter of puppies that will all have great homes just waiting for them, without any screenings for health, temperament, or working ability.