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You are thinking of avoidance as it is used in bitework. It is avoidance. Escape training is avoidance training. Different words, same basic meaning.

Not as the terms are used in Ecollar training. "Escape" means that the dog learns to shut off the stim by complying. "Avoidance" means that he performs and the stim never comes. He's performed so quickly that he beats it. You're thinking of the terms as they are used in bitework. Ecollars have their own language.

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New handlers are just that, new handlers. They have their gadget and it ought to work in a few weeks dangit!

Well, it does work and it usually doesn't take a "few weeks." Of course it depends on what kind of training you're talking about. I wouldn't think that we're talking about complex behaviors such as a directed search and retrieve for a gun dog or a building search for a police dog, since we're talking mostly about new handlers. An inexperienced handler can use my articles (over a hundred have, I have their emails) and get a reliable recall, sit and down in a "few weeks."

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They will mess up, they will teach the dog when the collar is on or off, and they will ask the dog to do something without a leash to guide, because it has been 3 weeks and the dog ought to do it by now.

All of these things can and do happen with other tools as well. But in any case, these things are covered in my articles. If the handler reads them thoroughly, he'll know how to avoid the pitfalls.

Earlier I wrote: Why do you think that "a little more personal" is better?

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So they don't get to carried away, like new handlers do.

This can happen with any tool. And at least the handler can't cause any physical damage with the Ecollar.

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If all you have to do is push a button, who cares shock the snot out of them.

Anyone who likes dogs cares! You're describing abuse, which can occur with any tool and any method of teaching. I've always wondered why people always do this when discussing the Ecollar. Abuse isn't in the tool, it's in the user. No one needs to spend hundreds of dollars to buy an Ecollar in order to abuse a dog, not when his boot or a stick is right there.

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And quite frankly, I have trained with some really good trainers in my life. If the e-collar was such a phenominal tool why are they not using it.

Because they're not as good as they (or you) think? Because they'd have to learn something new? Because they'd have to spend some money and time and for a while they'd wouldn't be comfortable? Because they're invested in the method that's worked for them for years? Because people fear change? Because they're afraid they won't have success? I could go on but I’m sure you get the point.

How many of them have used the Ecollar as I teach it? I'd guess that none of them do. I've used just about every tool for training a dog extant and have settled on the Ecollar as the fastest, most efficient and humane tool available. I've used their tools, have they used mine? I'd guess not, at least not as I teach it.

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Why is it that I have not used it for very much?

I don't know. Probably some of the reasons above apply. You've already demonstrated that you don't understand the many facets of the tool or the terms used in Ecollar training.

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Maybe it's because I can train a dog as well or better than you without "escape training" my dog.

I don't know if you can "train a dog as well or better than" me. I've never seen your work and I'm confident that you've never seen mine. So this is pointless conjecture on your part. Maybe you can and maybe you can't. Does it really make a difference? I don't think so. If you're happy with your methods and tools then hooray, so am I!

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Sure it takes longer, but I have the time. I also really like training.

I much prefer working a dog to training him. To me, that's the point of the training to get to the work that I want him to do. The training isn't the reason I'm there, it's to get to the work! Of course I realize that anytime you're in a dog's presence, training is occurring but I'm talking about laying the foundation as quickly as possible and then moving on to the more advanced work. I've never understood why something that takes longer, is inherently better. Can you explain? I think that if the results are the same, then faster is better. If you think that slower is better, and you seem to, I'm interested in hearing why.

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I have noticed the trend with the labs that are being bred are the type that handle the e-collar training quite well.

I've never come across a dog that didn't "handle Ecollar training quite well."

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I have also notice that a lot of dogs are starting to lose the willingness to please.

Blaming this on the Ecollar is a bit like blaming Detroit because cars are getting faster. The demand from the consumer is there so the breeders are doing what they're asked to do. Competition demands faster, better, more efficient and so breeders supply that. "Willingness to please" has never been very high on my list of what I want in a dog but I understand that many people, particularly those who want their training to be easy, want this. BTW this isn't meant as a slight. There's nothing wrong with wanting training to go easy. I prefer dogs that want to work rather than dogs who want to please. And I'm not sure that any dog really wants to please anyone but himself. But this is a whole 'nother conversation.

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I want a dog that would do something just for praise. to do everything just for praise. Not that I would train like that, but it is what I want, and my definition of willingness. Try that with labs that have been bred for the e-collar. whoooooo that'll take you back a bit. Man they don't care or notice too much.

What do you do when such a dog, who doesn't work for praise, is the dog that you want to train? It could be your latest dog or one brought to you by a client or friend? I use whatever form of reinforcement the dog prefers. Sometimes it's praise, sometimes it's physical touch, sometimes it's a tug of war toy, sometimes it's a ball to chase. I don't force any dog into a niche just because I'm comfortable there. He selects what form of reinforcement he prefers and will work best with. With some dogs, particularly the highly driven ones, merely being allowed to work is reinforcement enough. Many of them don't give a damn about praise.

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I don't have this huge problem with the e-collar like you think, I just know what new handlers are like, and know them all too well!

A great deal of my work has been with new and fairly new handlers. For 15 years I trained new handlers for police K-9's. Most of the SAR handlers and pet owners are fairly new. But a lot of my work these days is with "experienced" handlers of both police and SAR dogs. So I've seen handlers with all levels of experience. When it comes to the Ecollar they have many similarities. They're afraid of the tool because they've heard the horror stories. Some have seen misuse of the tool and that's left an impression as well. But almost universally they've come across a problem that their trainers can't solve with conventional methods and tools or even Ecollars, and they come to me.

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The newbies that get into gears and gadgets pretty much have the same hurry up attitude.

Newbies don't have to "get into gears and gadgets" to have a "hurry up" attitude; this is an era of "instant gratification." In any case, I don't see any reason to wait for weeks to get results.

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I started training and heard about the e-collar, saw a dog trained with the e-collar and said to myself so what. my dog does better than that.

I don't recall saying that the Ecollar guaranteed "better" results. Usually it's faster and I consider that to be "better." The less time spent in training, the more time that can be spent in working.

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Now I have seen what they can do

Based on your next statement I'd say that you haven't seen what they can do. You've seen trainers with little knowledge of the tool do some so-so work. You haven't seen anyone who knows the tool use it. It's sort of like watching someone with poor balance walk along a painted line on the ground. You're not seeing the Flying Wallendas!

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I have seen dogs that were trained with these collars, and got pumped from the stim, and the excersize got to be a big mess. I have seen more disasters than good over the years trust me, they were not all bad trainers.

If you've seen disasters those were not good trainers! How anyone can make such a statement is beyond comprehension. Perhaps they were good with other tools but if they created "disasters" they didn't know what they were doing with the Ecollar. This is not unusual. Being good with a leash and collar or a clicker doesn't make one good with an Ecollar.

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Again, the basic attitude of new handlers who want to use e-collars to train are in a hurry and love gadgets.

Sometimes that 's the case and so what? I'm a gadget guy and always have a new one around. I'm especially enamored of flashlights. Ask me about the Gladius or the Lightcap, LOL. I'm also in a hurry. I only have 12-15 years to get a dog trained, after that it's a moot point. It's a good thing that the Ecollar gives such fast results I guess.

Ed, is there a featured instructor in your new DVD? Also, are you covering protection sports or simple OB?

I did the e-collar DVD myself. I have been using them for 25 years I dont need help here.

The DVD is for pet owners - not protection training. I learned a lesson on producing training videos back in 1980 - my first video was HOW TO TRAIN A COMPETITION OBEDIENCE DOG - it was 2 hour long. That was stupid and it did not take me long to figure out that good training videos have a lot of detail on a focused topic.

There will be other e-collar DVD's on protection training. When I worked a patrol dog on the sheriff's department my dogs never left the house without a collar on.

Lou Castle wrote: "Not as the terms are used in Ecollar training. "Escape" means that the dog learns to shut off the stim by complying. "Avoidance" means that he performs and the stim never comes."


Jeff, he's correct.

If you really wanted to get into it, it's the difference between using negative reinforcement and positive punishment. I think that negative reinforcement is the most useful form of compulsion for dog training. Positive punishment has it's places as well, but trying to teach behaviors using punishment is difficult. Punishment is best used to kill a behavior, not encourage one.

Escape training is using negative reinforcement. The dog learns what makes the stim stop.

Avoidance training is using positive punishment. The dog learns what to do, or more often. . .NOT do, to avoid being stimmed.


Teaching a recall is a perfect example of escape training, or use of negative reinforcement. You stim dog, the only way that dog can turn off stim is to come. Dog learns what to do to escape stim. Negative reinforcement increases, or reinforces, behaviors. The dog is more likely to do something.

Stopping the dog from chasing a car is avoidance training. Dog starts to chase car and you zap the ever living hell out of him. Dog decides not to chase the car next time to avoid being fried. Simple rule of punishment, it decreases behavior that it closely follows.


Positive punishment is not the most productive way to train a dog. Negative reinforcement is a more productive way to train a dog.

Using low stim and guiding the dog to learn how to escape the unpleasant stim is the best way to train your dog. Not only is the learning more clear, but it isn't apt to hurt your dog's temperament if done well.

Incorrect application of punishment can utterly screw up your dog.

Whre to start?? I got my dog when he was 10 months old. He didn't know anything. Two months later, I had 99% of the ring three exersizes ready for the decoy. I used marker training, and a clicker for the object guard. So speed wasn't the issue.

One thing that I definately agree with is flashlights. I love those things! Probably my star wars infatuation.

My basic (obviously) misunderstanding stems from how many people I have dealt with that use the e-collars incorrectly. In a perfect world, I would have them use marker training so they can get their timing down. This is not a perfect world, so I see more disasters than not. We are talking about the average new trainer.

Someday, if I ever hit the jackpot lottery (and if I did, everything would break and get sick and it would all be gone <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> or 50,000,000 other people would have the same number!) I want to see what you are doing, and how I could use it.

As far as the abuse goes, many people don't think that they are doing anything wrong. I have seen how sketchy some of these dogs get. This is not your fault, or the e-collars fault, but this is how this happens sometimes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

This typing is killing me, I can't even go fast enough. So I will stop here.

"Whre to start?? I got my dog when he was 10 months old. He didn't know anything. Two months later, I had 99% of the ring three exersizes ready for the decoy."

Jeff, That is really incredible! what club do you belong to and where are you trialing next? Do you do seminars?

PM me and I will let you know.

For some reason the email icon is not showing up on the thread. My email is scott@cnsroofing.com

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Whre to start?? I got my dog when he was 10 months old. He didn't know anything. Two months later, I had 99% of the ring three exersizes ready for the decoy.

Quite impressive. I wonder how did the dog actually do in the ring, in the face of distractions. Being "ready for a decoy" is one thing. When distractions are introduced is where most training breaks down. Anyone can get a good sit-stay in the house. It's when other dogs, other people, chicken bones, blowing leaves and the like are present; where the sit-stay disappears.

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My basic (obviously) misunderstanding stems from how many people I have dealt with that use the e-collars incorrectly. In a perfect world, I would have them use marker training so they can get their timing down.

Using a certain tool (any tool) doesn't give someone good timing. Some people have great timing naturally. Some people have OK timing. Some people have terrible timing. Some people can improve their timing and some are incapable of it. The tool they choose has nothing to do with this whatsoever.

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This is not a perfect world, so I see more disasters than not. We are talking about the average new trainer.

I guess this is an area where as Harry Nilsson said, "you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear." My experience, especially with "average new trainer(s)" is exactly the opposite.

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I want to see what you are doing, and how I could use it.

I'm glad that your mind is open Jeff. I'll be happy to show you. If my travels doing seminars ever take me to CO (again, I've been there twice) you're invited as my guest. If you see that I'm doing a seminar near you please remind me.

I sent an e-mail. We had a big computer crash here, I think it still works.