wow nice reading... there is training like that with people running around with guns? well besides the the dog has spetial, or "left alone" training like in IPO or ZVV, maybe shutz(not sure). I always thought that it was a "normal" thing to get dogs used to gun shots. So they ignore it but dont persue any attack. or run away... Hope I am getting it right

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wow nice reading... there is training like that with people running around with guns? well besides the the dog has spetial, or "left alone" training like in IPO or ZVV, maybe shutz(not sure). I always thought that it was a "normal" thing to get dogs used to gun shots. So they ignore it but dont persue any attack. or run away... Hope I am getting it right

it should be, but often isn't. i went to a police K9 trial a couple of weeks ago. usually there is a scenario where a suspect fires a gun and the dog apprehends the guy. i know straight out of the sport world. in this particular trial i went to, the scenario was the bad guy shot a gun, and ran. handler was to send the dog. half way through the guy throws the gun away, stops and puts up his arms. the dog is supposed to call off. only 2 of 21 or so dogs called off. reason? a lot of the dogs were "competition dogs" and used to getting a bite when a gun is fired. they were all working police dogs, but most of them are the usual people that compete on the "circuit". that's why i say competition dogs.

my only point in bringing this up is that unrealistic training doesn't just take place in sports, but in some police circles as well...

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And more importantly, what would be correct way to reward such a dog in your view?

If you're talking about obedience, when you begin to train a puppy,I think the reward should be food, then it should progress to play...after a release, and finally, ecollar and prong corrections while proofing, with random...very random...play.

Gunfire...in my view...is ENVIRONMENTAL...and should not be associated to ANYTHING after the initial exposure. It most certainly SHOULD NOT be viewed (by the dog) as opposition...and thus, it's a mistake in the training venues that use that format, to teach a dog that gunfire is the immediate predecessor to a bite ON THE PERSON THAT SHOT THE GUN.

For sporting dogs...all that would have to change...is for the HANDLER to test the dog for gunshyness <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> while the dog is on a loose lead, next to the handler, using Will's "high caliber" .32 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding, Will.

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If you're talking about obedience, when you begin to train a puppy,I think the reward should be food, then it should progress to play...after a release, and finally, ecollar and prong corrections while proofing, with random...very random...play.

Have to disagree on this one in the sence that when starting with a pup sure go ahead with food, but PROGRESS to play...........play should be up there as nr 1 along with the food.

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ecollar and prong corrections while proofing

u want to put an ecollar and prong collar on a pup????????????????????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> maybe u can explain this a bit more

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random play

why random? U can teach a dog loads during play...play can also be a reward

gr
Hil

Hilary, I don't want to go off topic.

My point is that dog competition formats make it a must for a dog to perform "in drive" "flashy" "explosive" obedience. The way to get this is usually fixating the dog on a prey item.

This works...but at a high cost...if the dog will later go on to work.

When you say a "prong on a puppy" followed by a million question marks, you must understand I consider most dogs to be puppies well into their second year. A mature dog is usually over 3 years old.

Also, OF COURSE you can teach a bunch during play. IN FACT IT'S VITAL TO PLAY WITH YOUR DOG FOR ITS ENTIRE LIFE. I was referring to rewarding commands. My point is that the working dog must obey...PERIOD...not obey if a reward is present or promised. It must learn to obey for praise (as a bridge, a reward marker), from when it's puppy, and to expect the primary reinforcer...as the pup gets older...waaay down the line. (Allowances to be made...huge ones...for detector dogs)

To try to use play (vs food) as reward when training an 8 wk old puppy, is a waste of imprinting time (assuming decent food desire)...in my view.

My final point is that I would REALLY like to see handlers shooting off the blanks to test their dogs gun sureness...or lack thereof. I would like to see a dog that react aggressively towards a loud...previously conditioned...sound, penalized.

I agree that excersises with a with the decoy firing the gun and the dog being sent to bite is a good way to get aggression to gunfire issues . I have always felt we should change that in our certification ( United States Police Canine Association ) . It's six .38 rounds fired by the decoy with the dog sent to apprehend .

To be honest though I haven't had too many aggression to gunfire issues with the titled or green dogs that have had previous training in these sports when I trained them into PSD's . The biggest problem I see is equipment (sleeve , suit )fixation .

As potential candidates for police work I would rather see dogs trained to tolerate gunfire at a distance during obediance , then leave the rest of the gunfire tolerance training up to the PSD trainer .

Andres stated;

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My point is that the working dog must obey...PERIOD...not obey if a reward is present or promised.

When I started in K9 our training was alot like what you are descibing you do and I swear I said the exact same thing you stated above . Since then we went to a more motivational mode of training using toys (prey items)and I realised I was wrong .

They aren't being bribed with a toy to do things as long as you are still varying (when and how) you reward and couple that with the appropriate amount of compulsion when the dog is disobediant .

I have had very few problems with fixation to the prey item . In fact the dogs trained with a prey item that I have trained learned faster and perform better in real world applications .

Most "fixation" to prey item problems are solved by teaching the dog that the handler controls when and how the dog is rewarded and when the dog is to give up the prey item to it's handler and get back to work .

like all things in dog training, i believe it varies depending on the dog. some dogs heel better with a treat in your mouth, some dogs do better with the ball under you armpit. i would have chewed up armpits if i used the ball, so with my dog i use a treat in my mouth. every so often on a sit or a down or a recall, i'll drop the treat into his mouth. not every time. the dog gets out of line, he gets a leash or e-collar correction.

but this doesn't work for apprehension exercizes. like you said, the biggest battle i face with my IPO dog is the sleeve fixation. goes absolutely ballistic for it and outting it is a major battle (he fights through level 15 on his innotek collar). sometimes when i correct him back into a down when an agitator is in front of us with the sleeve, he'll turn around and bite me. not nearly as bad on the suit. he hits the suit very well, but is much more controlled on the outs. his muzzle work is good, not great yet, but i think it eventually will be.

so i don't believe there is any ONE way to train ALL dogs. what works great for one dog may not be so great for another.

Tim , I agree it varies with the individual dog . There are still some we use praise and play time as there primary reward but they are now the minority instead of the majority like days past . Most of our training is having the dog do their task without the prey item in view . For successes they are rewarded variably , most times with a prey item other times with some other form of reward . Once again this changes with the individual dog .

That's the problem with discussing K9 training on the internet . Often what 1 person says comes across as this is the ONLY way to train ALL K9's when in fact they stating what works in general for most of the dogs they train .

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When I started in K9 our training was alot like what you are descibing you do and I swear I said the exact same thing you stated above . Since then we went to a more motivational mode of training using toys (prey items)and I realised I was wrong .

Me too, but then I went back to the beginning, when I realized that with the type of dogs I work with, the (potential) bite on the man is the reward...and the "issues" have to do with control, not motivation.

Regarding gun aggression , I don't see that problem too much, but almost all the sport dogs get very jumpy...and for sure the VAST majority of the dogs start barking when the guns go off...more so if both the decoy and handler are shooting. This I don't correct, I use negative punishment. If the dog barks he does not get a bite and gets walked away until calm, and then I try again. Sometimes it takes two weeks or more, but it's well worth it because after that, it pretty ingrained.

ALL the snappy obedience you do using a prey item is done (I think?) for demos and certifications. Real world obedience for you is with lights flashing, people all over the place, YOUR adrenaline pumping...typically you would grab your dog's leash a bit tighter and use a more intense tone of voice. Dogs notice this, and for THIS reason I don't like to muddy the waters carrying "prey" items with me when I go train: for adult dogs I would rather use a potential bite as an incentive. It's a different story for youngsters and play items, food, etc.

BTW there's an entire section on this forum about Obedience in Protection that's rather underutilized.

Jim, for equipment fixation problems I have simply eliminated sleeve work altogether (exception: very occasional use of hidden sleeve), and use only suits...different ones...many times covered up by some other garments. The reward for a good fight is the decoy goes down. No trotting with the sleeve. Admittedly, in this country we are not constrained, as you are.

Anyways, have a good weekend guys. I'm training dogs in the morning, and hitting the beach from noon ´til dusk with my family. 82°F and cloudless skies. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> 82°F water too!

There are so many things wrong with this post.

Andres: "1) If the sport dog world is where many Police dogs come from, why is it that in ALL sport dog venues, the decoy does the shooting and also gets bitten?"



No, actually the dogsports where the decoy shoots are rare. But that isn't the issue. Firearm issues come from bad training or a freakish biological issue. Either way, the goal is to have the dog totally ignore a gunshot. This is a training issue most of the time, and even when it isn't it can usually be fixed using good training techniques. The issues have nothing to do with "sport" training.



Andres: "2) Why would (too) many sport trainers continue to have their dogs "fixate" on a prey item as a reward?"

"After watching a recent video link in this forum, where an officer would command a dog to "sit" behind cover, attempt to draw his gun, and the dog would try to bite the gun...either because it didn't like the sound of the gun, or because it viewed the gun as the toy reward after the sit...I wonder"


This problem doesn't come from using a prey item as a reward. Using a prey item as a reward is vital for good dectection work, for good obedience work, etc. You can't have a dual purpose dog for detection and patrol without them being fixated on a prey item!!

AAAAAaaaaaaHHHhhhhhhaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





Obedience in protection is something different. You aren't going to use a prey toy reward in most cases in protection obedience. That's a no brainer, the decoy is the reward.