So I think I screwed up. I have been raising my puppy using the Flinks DVDs and I was under the impression from them that flanking was a good way to train the out. I probably started doing this to early, maybe about 4 months and I only have done it twice. It worked great but I realized that there was no reason to work the out and since then I have completely backed off of the outs. Well I finally got to a point in our bite work where there is no way to get the tug back from my girl so I outed her for the first time tonight. There was no flank and she spit the tug right out and we went back into drive. After that, whenever she was in my arms and I would stroke her gently down the side, if I would pause on her flank she would spit the tug. I don't know if I should be worried or just start reducing the amount of time in the arms until she gets better.

I have recently learned from a thread on this board that most people think that flanking is just bad training and it should not be done. So there are two questions here.

1. What can I do to fix the damage that I have done?

2. How should I have trained the out?

I know that there are many ways to train the out but I want to hear them all. Looking for more healthy conversation and debate. Please help.

I was told with my pups (14wks) I should trade food for the odject.It goes like this pup has toy I hold out piece of food he drops the toy, as soon as the toy hits the ground I say out and give pup the food. This method was working until my one pup will no longer trade. I would like to hear of other methods of training the OUT as well since I've come to a stand still! I have also been using the Flinks DVD.

The thing with following videos or DVD or certain methods is that not EVERY dog has watched that same thing... point being, I think that some of the methods/ideas are great, but they don't suit every dog.

On the out, you dog is a baby, forget the out for now, go back to it in a few months.

What Sammy said! Before your dog is ready for the out, while the dog is in drive, keep a little tension on the toy while you GENTLY touch the dog on it's flanks. The tension will cause the dog to hold it's grip, and the gentle touch on the flanks will teach the dog you aren't going to out it. I wouldn't do this while the dog is "in your arms". That is supposed to be a very stress free place to be.

Quote: I wouldn't do this while the dog is "in your arms". That is supposed to be a very stress free place to be.

Then why is the flanking shown in this position? Using flanking for the out is retarded. Call me an idiot, I don't care, but everyone talks about the "safe place" into my arms, and then the dog gets flanked, and or the ball gets stolen out of the dogs mouth. It is not a safe place, it is used to distract the dog so you can steal the toy, or flank it off the toy. Maybe we can start a thread on the proper use of trees in dog training. Think about that for a while. And yes I am disgusted.

NEW POST: Can you train a female dog to use a tree? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Sadly, yes, I have seen this. She was the weirdest dog I have ever owned. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In my DVD on Building Drive and Focus I breifly explain how to get a pup to OUT. The pup is first offered a trade for his prey item (a ball or tug) - either food or another prey item for the item he currently has.

When the pup knows the game this will no longer work. At that point - on a puppy of 8 to 12 weeks the handler can QUICKLY (so the pup does not see the hand movement and become hand shy) pinch or lightly flank the pup after the OUT command is given. When the pup spits the tug its praised and the game immediatley starts again.

This means the dog is put back into drive.

If its the end of the training session the pup is put back in drive and then the training stops the training AND PUTS HIS PREY ITEM AWAY.

The pup is left in drive - remember frustration builds Drive.

In the DVD I explain that this proceedure when done properly should not be done often and when done properly the pups quickly learn to drop the prey. Hanlders need to reward the drop with praise.

The important thing I cover in the DVD is to not do this very often. At most once or twice a training session (if that)

The fact is that when a dog learns the OUT at a very young age it will remember the command for life and only through handler error in training will the OUT become a problem later on. The concept to remember is that we teach the dog that the OUT is not the end of the game - it's only a short interuption of the game. When done properly the dogs pick up on this.

With older dogs the best way to teach the OUT is with a remote trainer. This takes additional handler training that I wont go into here.

Flanking is not recommended on an older dog. It only takes them one or two times to figure out the handler did it and when that happens problems develop.

Jake - you did nothing wrong. What you need to do is take the dog into your arms and as you stroke it on the side the instant your hand gets to the point where you think she may spit the tug you quickly grab the tug and go back into making prey. You must find the exact spot on her side where she spits and grab the prey before your hand reaches that spot. You will find that through this work the dog will stop spitting.

Jeff - sorry to disgust you but you happen to not understand the concept of the work. I suggest you revisit what is shown on the DVD (if you have it) Remember my saying about OPINIONS?

Quote:Jeff - sorry to disgust you but you happen to not understand the concept of the work. I suggest you revisit what is shown on the DVD (if you have it) Remember my saying about OPINIONS?

I know, I know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I get great outs, just a different method. I was almost eaten by a dog that was flanked, and decided to learn a different way. Thats all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jeff- once again you dont seem to be listening or reading what I wrote - again just for you:

I said that this method is used on puppies around 12 weeks of age, it only needs to be done 3 or 4 times - did you miss the part about not using it on adult dogs that can eat you? Anyone who flanks an adult dog to get it to OUT deserves to be dog bit.

My records show you have not purchased the DVD on Building Drive and Focus - I suggest you take some time and study the DVD - you just may learn something.