Hi Aaron:
you are obviously not happy with your dog, and from what I've read you have three options:
1) Return the dog and take a break from dog ownership.
2) Return the dog and get a different breed (perhaps a more laid back type).
3) Build a nice large outdoor run and when you are not home put the dog outside.
If you don't want to return your dog I would strongly suggest number three since your main source of stress seems to be due to your dog destroying your house. Feed him in his crate, leave him in there for a bit until he has to go to the bathroom and put him outside. Now its not possible for him to "go" in your house, or destroy it.

I'm a novice at this working/SchH dog stuff and am most familiar with hunting dogs, that being said I have to tell you that you seem to have done a number on your pooch. You forgot what I feel is a cardinal rule in dog ownership that we all must come to realize-HOW MUCH DOG/WHAT KIND OF DOG CAN I HANDLE?-my decision was simple. I was a newbie to GSDs/Mals/Rotts/Dutchies so I went with...(don't laugh or spit at me Ed et al) a show line German GSD with decent SchH/IPO in its pedigree. Bottom line-enough dog for me right now and perfect for my house. From what I have learned at my club and on this board if I were to ever get a Mal I would not expect the bugger to be at home alone, uncrated for any length of time. On top of all that, though you don't speak of it much, it seems as though the basics of house/crate training was forgotten. Dang partner...just my humble opinion...keep your pup secure in a quality outside kennel when you're gone and work the dickens out of him when you're home (join a club too if you're not a member), buy some videos and/or books and measure success in small increments. That being said, and with my limited knowledge, I don't think that Mal was the choice for you. You'd probably do best letting him go to someone who has had some solid training experience and a dog or two. You already know you messed up badly so I won't shake you on that!

I usually don't reply to these posts as I consider myself a newbie as well... but I agree that a Mal just might be too much dog for your life style. They are known for there endless energy and drive. Like Doug…I also have a German shown line and she fits so nicely into my home. Although at the time I bought her I didn’t know the difference between show lines vs. working lines. I am glad I ended up with the dog I have. After learning what I have learned about the drives working dog… I don’t think they are for me as I just don’t have the energy to keep up with them. My lazy showline keeps me plenty busy... and I love her spirit. She is so loyal. I wouldn't trade her for anything.

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You need to go get a Peekapoo or something.

My Mals are not crated to stop their bowel movements, or to stop them harming themselves, they are crated because I like my house in one piece, not several 1000 shredded pieces.

I have Mals because I wanted serious working dogs, not couch dogs. My dogs would kill each other in the house, and also most probably kill my husband given half the chance (he is my main decoy) LOL!

Your post pisses me off as much as you are pissed off.. but for different reasons. Your post is a GREAT example of why 99.9% of people should not go out and buy a Malinois without fully understanding what you have getting.

I hear you and am listening to you fully. I am much more at ease now as I posted it within 5min after I just finished cleaning his dung and scrubbing the carpet so I was feeling a little fueled.

When you said you keep them in there to prevent your house being a disaster makes total sense now. So all those people who I have spoken to in the past BEFORE I got his little butt were trying to make a sale saying " our mals do fine in the house alone" yatta yatta yatta. I asked them this as a few other breeders explained they are and will wreck shop when given the chance.

As for the research, I want to state it as such. Someone told me it was a good analogy. And this is my deduction on the whole thing.

You can do all the research in the world but it won't be anything like you expected. Almost like drivers ed. You can read the manuals until blue in the face but it never prepared you nearly as close as when you were in the drivers seats taking it out on your own.

That's how it is with him. Yea I fiugured it would be a bit strenuous but once and now that I have had him a long while boy'o'boy is it something I never expected to be like this. I have confidence but the time and work involved is astrnomical.

I am learning, slowly but surely.

Aaron, i haven't read in this post if you like your dog or not. You know, there's nothing wrong with taking a step back and starting from the beginning. It's probably not clear to your dog what your asking of him. If you like your dog and are going to keep him/her, buy the basic obedience dvd and watch it a bunch of times, the information in it works. The crate is the beginning, if you're not supervising your dog, in the crate he goes, my puppy loves his "house" it's not punishment, it's security, i tell him to get in his house, and he goes in there full speed, cause he knows a treat is coming, My dogs live in my house with my wife and i, i try to train them, she spoils them, we both laugh at the crazy stuff they do, and they enrich our lives, but i teach them constantly what they can and can't do, in and out of the house. If i had left any of them out at 15mo. old, it would of been ugly when i got home. Read the articles, buy the dvd, and enjoy owning your dog, instead of hating it, Try not to get frustrated, it doesn't help, good luck, AL

The smarter your dog is, the more drive your dog has, the more powerful the dog's temperament, and the higher the dog's energy level is. . .the less room there is for making training mistakes.


Training the average high drive working dog is like walking a razor edge. There isn't much give side to side or you'll fall off. . .and if you push too hard and move too fast. . .you're gonna slice the shat out of yourself.



Build a kennel run (this is just absolutely vital), step back and start at the begining to house break the dog (using good crate training and the kennel), only buy the dog the most indistructable toys available (car tires work well LOL), continue to exercise the crap out of the dog, and do something to occupy the dog's mind. Obedience training every day is a good way. It fries their little pea brains and they loose some of their desire to tear your stuff up.

I also wouldn't ever suggest owning a Malinois unless you have an outlet for that dog to do bitework. There is no calm, like the calm of a dog who just got to go all kinds of wicked crazy on a sleeve, a bite roll, or a decoy.

If you can't do these things, you owe it to your dog to rehome him.





The one key thing to remember about dog training is that emotional training is the biggest mistake that people make. It has been my nemisis for years. I get emotional and frustrated easily. I have to actively work to remain calm and aloof while dog training. This is going to be a problem with you from here on out.

Good luck

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Aaron, i haven't read in this post if you like your dog or not. You know, there's nothing wrong with taking a step back and starting from the beginning. It's probably not clear to your dog what your asking of him. If you like your dog and are going to keep him/her, buy the basic obedience dvd and watch it a bunch of times, the information in it works. The crate is the beginning, if you're not supervising your dog, in the crate he goes, my puppy loves his "house" it's not punishment, it's security, i tell him to get in his house, and he goes in there full speed, cause he knows a treat is coming, My dogs live in my house with my wife and i, i try to train them, she spoils them, we both laugh at the crazy stuff they do, and they enrich our lives, but i teach them constantly what they can and can't do, in and out of the house. If i had left any of them out at 15mo. old, it would of been ugly when i got home. Read the articles, buy the dvd, and enjoy owning your dog, instead of hating it, Try not to get frustrated, it doesn't help, good luck, AL

He has never had prob with the crate. In fact I can be anywhere and say " kotesh" and he'll go right in and sit down. When I load him up in the back of the SUV I put him in a sit and stay and open the back gate door deal open the kennel tell him "ok, kotesh" and usually by the time I say "ok" he's already half way in the kennel before I tell him kotesh. But like sometimes he'll bypass the kennel and hop on the speaker box back there and I tell him kotesh and he'll hop off of it and climb right in. I never give him treats. when he goes in I usually throw what ever toys I am going to use in there and that's good enough for him b/c he grabs them greedily and starts getting shakey as he knows the ride is either new areas to explore or a hard run and then maybe a few ball retrieving exercises to cool him off and keep a good habit up...

Thanks for the luck. I am looking currently on which vids I want.

Aaron.....do u have the dog for being a dog or is he just the subject of one of ur science projects? I cant seem to work out if ur trying to work WITH the dog or just agrivate it so u get to study its behaviour when u p*** the poor dog off. I'd take the dog back to the breeder and get a few mice instead <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Aaron,

I haven't read through all of the posts as I don't have time. Being the owner of 2 Mal's I can certainly tell you that a 3 mile (5 km) run is just a warm-up for this breed. Your dog's physical and mental needs are NOT being met. 25 minutes of obedience a day is not very much mental stimulation for this breed, especially if you want it to reside in the house uncrated.

The only thing that truly physically tires out my 3 year old Malinois is scootering or skijoring. Not only is it physically demanding but she needs to pay attention and listen to my commands. Here is a list of the activities that I do with her...

~off leash walks are normally 60 to 90 minutes.
~scootering in the spring and fall (it's usually too hot here to do it in the summer)
~skijoring in the winter
~swimming in the summer (at least 45 minutes)
~biking in the summer where she runs beside the bike
~tracking (TTD style 1 km tracks)
~fly ball
~obedience
~agility
~bite work
~obedience

Obviously I don't do everything every day but she gets a variety of things to do. You need to tire out the brain as well as the body.

I had to keep her crated in the house until she was just over 2 years of age. Before that she would have destroyed things just like your boy is doing. When she starts to get antsy because I'm not doing enough with her, I will crate her to save my belongings.

Do yourself and the dog a favour. Either start giving him the attention that he requires or send him back to his breeder.

Natalie
http://alikamalinois.tripod.com
http://eklypsevanarek.tripod.com

VanCamp

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The smarter your dog is, the more drive your dog has, the more powerful the dog's temperament, and the higher the dog's energy level is. . .the less room there is for making training mistakes.
Training the average high drive working dog is like walking a razor edge. There isn't much give side to side or you'll fall off. . .and if you push too hard and move too fast. . .you're gonna slice the shat out of yourself.



Another thing to consider is handler sensitivity. When my level of anxiety is higher so is my Mals, especially if it goes on for a few days in a row. Having a Mal in the house has made me a calmer person! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If I'm zippin around like the house is on fire guess who else starts zippin around. Such is life with a high drive dog!

Another thing you might want to work on a little more is what it "yours" and "mine". Winnie loves tearing cardboard up just like your guy but, she only gets the empty toilet paper or paper towel rolls. Believe me she knows from the way the roll sounds when it is empty and will come from another room to get them. Will occasionally finish unrolling the toilet paper cause she just can't wait!

Guess what I'm saying is....start really paying attention to subtle things you may be doing that possibly triggers some of his anxious behavior.

Hang in there he isn't an adult yet.

Debbie