Now that was a read and a half. I know I'm not around much anymore, but I thought I would but in $.02.

Here's a scenario for you Andrew.

You are out walking your 800 lb. dog pack on leash in what you call "absolute control" and a truly aggressive dog on a flexi-leash, complete with clueless owner attached to the aft end, decides to pick a fight with you and your dogs. You put the slobbery mob behind you and face the aggressor with full intent on driving him away, or potentially rehabilitating him on the fly with your pack of neos. He decides you aren't worth the trouble, flanks you, and latches onto one of your neos in a meaningful way. His owner is right behind him trying to stop the mess that is now unfolding, and your pack defends itself. Tell me how your are going to control that situation? How are you going to keep that aggressive dog from being killed, and possibly his irresponsible owner? If you think you are man enough to handle 4 pissed off dogs by yourself, you are sorely mistaken.

Another thing you need to consider. This is a working dog forum... not "working breed", but working dog. This implies a level of control that you are in no way familiar with. I can DOWN my dog at 200 meters when she is chasing a goat / kid / person firing a gun / whatever. She will recall to me from any distance under any distraction. I know this because I have trained and proofed this behavior. Not because I have a warm and fuzzy about my relationship with my dog. Back tying a low drive dog to a fence and walking away from it is not training; it is conditioning. Having the same dog respond to commands under the same distractions would be training.

You see willing compliance of a biddable dog to perform simple tasks, such as sit when it feels like it, as trained behavior. We consider a dog OUTING when it wants to bite, and recalling when it wants to do anything BUT recall as trained behavior.

You are talking about running your Mini Cooper in an F1 forum.

I suggest you read. Get some videos. Open your mind to what you are missing. Listen to people who are trying to help you. If you do that, you will be a much better trainer at the end of the day.

Best of luck. I hope no one gets hurt.


P.S. Hey everybody

This situation would be easy to avoid by simply doing a 180 degree turn ,yes with all 4 at once, if you look how the 4 walk together on leash either at the side or behind and when coming to a main road I have every confidence they will stop and wait without being asked.

I have no doubt that under normal distractions your dogs will follow you anywhere you go without hesitation. The scenario, which you requested on several occasions, and I supplied, did not include normal distractions. It included one of your dogs being attacked aggressively by another dog.

My dogs may not have the regimented training of others here but their mental state is one of absolute calmness on leash in any situation and as they are leashed recall isnt a required command.

Your dogs would not be calm if they were being bitten by another dog or dogs.

This is not a senario I havent already encountered countless times normally by "fear biters" I could also easily walk my dogs around the dog or even cross the road its not as if it would just appear from no where.

The scenario didn't include a fear biter that simply wants you to go away and is satisfied with your retreat. You can't easily walk (or run) away from a dog that wants to fight.

My philoshpy is size does not matter but the mental state of the dog and the relationship it has with its owner and yes obedience is important too but the level of working dogs obedience will always be above that of dogs that are not worked in order to execute their working exercise ,|I dont work my dogs .

Size matters when you take into account a situation when the dog(s) will not comply because of extenuating circumstances. It is important to understand that no dog will refuse to defend itself when it feels that it has no other choice.

As for this site being exclusively for owners of dogs that work ,there are many articles and information
that are not exclusively related to the latter.

I never said, nor do I have any authority to state that, "This site is exclusively for owners of dogs that work." This site is comprised of many working and sport dog owners who will see things in a certain way because of their background, training, and experience. You posted a touchy feely type of training with hopes of being vindicated as some kind of miraculous trainer. Most people on this site work hard at training to a certain level of obedience required by their sport or job. We see a glaring lack of obedience in the way you handle your dogs. It's a matter of perspective.

I do appreciate how well your pack gets along and how non-reactive they are in public. It is a testament to how much exposure they have had, and to your calm leadership. I'm not trying to take that away from you at all.

The most my dogs will do in way of agression would be to pin the dog down,not execute an all out attack .I have posted many videos of my dogs walking on leash and none show them pulling me along at anytime and this is the case no matter what they are confronted with when they are on leash it is clear that they are not in the driving seat.

You don't know what your dogs will do any every situation. If one of your dogs is being attacked and goes into a truly fearful state because you can not make it stop, they will go into fight or flight. This is hardwired nature. They can't flee because they are on a leash, and will be more likely to fight because they have 3 buddies there to help them.

PS I am not an idiot infact I am educated to degree level as all accountants are required to be.There are may aproaches to dog rearing and not just based on regimented training but some that approach it from a behavioural and conditioning angle.

I never called you an idiot. I hope you use your education to read these posts, looking for helpful information, instead of forming a defensive reply as you scan them for opportunities to strengthen your position. I understand your approach to living with your dogs. I believe in forming a strong relationship with my dogs in much the same way you do, through leadership and conditioning. The main difference is that I don't see it as a one way street. You can achieve the same level of natural compliance and leadership through exposure conditioning that you have in your dogs, right along side a level of obedience that would afford the public more safety through precise control of your dogs in trained and proofed exercises.

Perhaps I should leave the "purist to their own website.

There is nothing elitist about this site. The passion you see here comes from the love we have for dogs and the willingness to learn more of their behavior and training every day. I wish you could stop defending yourself and start trying to be better at what you love to do. You obviously love to spend time with your dogs. I can only imagine the light that would shine in your eyes if you would just take your blinders off and see that there is more to training dogs than what you are doing. It's not that you need to change. You have the opportunity to grow.

Good bye

My philoshpy is size does not matter but the mental state of the dog and the relationship it has with its owner and yes obedience is important too but the level of working dogs obedience will always be above that of dogs that are not worked in order to execute their working exercise ,|I dont work my dogs .As for this site being exclusively for owners of dogs that work ,there are many articles and information
that are not exclusively related to the latter.