Cindy, I'll respond to your post because you've been there and done that. I'll explain how I've come to the feeling I have about the Parelli program.

First, let me tell you I'm really glad for you that you're enjoying it. Clearly, thousands of people feel as you do, or it wouldn't be so popular. I first heard of the book Natural HorseManShip quite a few years ago, when it first came out from Western Horseman. I got the book and read it, and while in parts it was kind of obtuse, it seemed like a very sound, kind way to look at riding; but it was nothing very different from anything written by Ray Hunt.

Fast forward a couple of years. I was at a barn where I was boarding at the time, and two newbies, a husband and wife in their fifties, had just returned from a weekend Parelli workshop. They had stars in their eyes, and began telling us all the things we were doing wrong. First, we shouldn't tie with ropes to hold our horses for tacking up; it was disrespectful to the horse. Ohhhkayyy, I thought; but I wondered how it was okay that both these horses were wandering around at will, ignoring their requests to stand for tacking, and basically flipping them the hoof (as opposed to the finger). It was also wrong to ride in a bridle; they informed us that we should ride in the rope halters. Well, her mare was a hot and impetuous horse, and it seemed to me it'd be better to have a bit and perhaps hit her in the mouth with her newbie unsteady hands a few times than to chance getting run away with. But she insisted on doing it like they were told in the clinic, and she rode in the rope halter only. When her mare finally blew her off at a creek bank, the ambulance couldn't get down to reach her. We had to haul paramedics down to her with a body board and haul her out in the rear end of a Kawasaki Mule. She broke her back. Fortunately, she was able to walk again, and in a year she was riding again; but she's fortunate she wasn't killed or in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. Barn owner put her foot down, and banned riding in the string halters.

This is how they learned to deal with safety and respect issues??!

There's often the suggestion that the Parelli way is the only way, and there's a subtle but real condescention toward other ways and disciplines. A friend of mine in Arkansas was told by the people in her Parelli study group that she'd never make it out of Level 1 until she could get on her horse bareback. Well for heaven's sakes, she's 64 years old and has arthritis in her hips! Should she have to??? Can't she be a skilled rider who uses a mounting block? The people in her study group actually told her to forget about riding her sweet and talented $30,000 dressage horse and get something smaller so she could get her Level 1. She was broken hearted and conflicted. I say you should ride the horse you've got, not the one you wish you had.

A friend in Louisiana has ridden barrels at the national level for thirty years. She heard good things about a Parelli trainer down the road a piece, and decided that maybe she could make better use of her time by letting the Parelli trainer start her new youngster, and she could continue legging up her competition horses. He invited her to a clinic over the weekend, and she decided to take one of her mature horses. Well, they drummed over and over a particular exercise, and when she could feel her horse considering evasions, she told them her horse had enough, and declined to continue with the exercise. She was actually ridiculed by the clinician and other participants for saying no! She knew her horse, and she knew this horse had enough. So much for reading the horse. The clinician actually told her that when she learns to ride, she'll feel differently about the Parelli program. Now that doesn't float too well with someone of her experience, but she didn't say anything. She pulled her horse from the clinic after further ridicule over different repetitive exercises and declining to use the special equipment on her horse; she knew it was wrong for him. Then, in the weeks ahead, the Parelli trainer told her that her colt was a nut, was dangerous, and he sent him home. She shrugged and started the colt herself without problems, and last November placed at the World show with him. He's a solid 2-D horse and is hardly crazy or dangerous. She's a 50+ year old rider, and does just fine by reading her horse and using good timing.

This is where the cookbook approach goes wrong. I understand that having a systematic approach may seem to make sense, but it can't touch the old fashioned method of learning to read a horse under the tutelage of a skilled person. Too much is misconstrued, and a false sense of safety and security leaves beginners open to terrible dangers and irritating arrogance.

I find it too often be a terrible people training program. As a trainer, I'm often left with horses whose heads go skyward and toplines that lock down when backing or when a leadrope is pulled. I get horses who have been endlessly moved off of a person's body space so that you can't get close to adjust your irons, they're skittering away, continually moving he haunches away. I feel so bad for some of these horses; they're not 'games' to many of them; they're endless repetitive torture. They're backed from wagging fingers until they're sore in the gaskins and SI, and nobody's ever told to quit while they're ahead. They just drill, and drill, and drill, often in incorrect form, the handler oblivious to the growing irritation or resignation in the horse. Poor horse.

I've known a few people to have fabulous success with it; one was an ex-dog obedience trainer. But she already understood timing, positive and negative primary and secondary reinforcements, shaping, etc. And this guy on the video gets it. But this type of training is not news, nor is it hardly unique to Parelli! This just has a marketing twist. Good, compassionate horsemanship has already been out there.

I don't need to jump on this particular guru's bandwagon to know it's not for me; I find this sort of thing very distasteful.

JMHO.

Mary Ann,

I don't know how long you have been in dogs but what you post is the same thing I see over and over when NEW people take a principle of training and beat it to DEATH...

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, of course but it's not parelli or clinton anderson or ray hunt or monty roberts or craig cameron or liz graves......etc....

it's the interpretation of the recipient of the info not the info itself that can be skewed, and quite frankly, this whole thread was started to show people the type of bond and accomplishments that are possible with a horse...

You commented on the swishing tail of the horse, etc... well I can look at a video of any top dog out there and pick out the areas where there is a bit of conflict that maybe a new person wouldn't even notice... when you are working with animals and acting as an effective leader whether it's a dog or a horse there are going to be areas where it can be sticky...

As for your friend putting her horse in a clinic and having that experience, well all I have to say about that is that I never put any of my animals in a clinic without auditing a clinic first with the trainer I am interested in... just for the very reason you stated... I don't want to subject my dog or horse to a training scenario that I am not in agreement with. It may make her feel better to blame Parelli for what happened but bottom line is that we are all responsible for the experiences our animals have with us.

I find it distasteful when I hear story after story about how awful *insert trainers name* is .... hopefully most people can look past this, watch trainers with dogs or horses they admire and learn from there...it's all a journey and I would hate to miss out on learning from someone because they might say something positive about *insert trainers name* and I have "heard" negatives about that person on a discussion board.

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I agree with Cindy. My girlfriend took her horse to a Kenny Harlow weekend seminar and came back with a new way to look at certain parts of training. She has been in horses since she was 8 years old and had just got herself a 2 year old standardbred fresh off the track. This horse had already been through 4 homes in 2 years. The horse is 17.2 hands high and was a bully. No respect for personal space, limitations, etc. She spent one day doing some "games" with the horse mixed in with what she already knew about horse/dog training and after 2 hours she had a saddle on the horse and was being led around the track while on her. Never has bucked or reared in her under saddle life. Fast forward 6 months and the horse is absolutely IN LOVE with my girlfriend (had me worried about who came first. lol. Its the horse, btw) but totally bullish to everyone else. The barn owner had a talk with us about the mare being a bully and so my GF took the mare to an expo to do breed exhibition and met Kenny Harlow, whom she had audited seminars from in the past. She volunteered her mare and spent 3 days with Harlow, watching and learning, as he used her horse to demo. She took what she learned in the three days (added to Kenny's continued support via e-mail) and now that horse is as sweet to everyone as she is to her. I go to the barn with her all the time and have never seen anything excessively repetitive. What I have seen is patience, consistancey and knowledge. All things I suggest that everyone uses in training. The worst part is that you get the weekend junkies that go around, watch a guy for a few hours, buy his crap and then trot off to the barn/kennel and harass their pets. Bottom line is, these people would be like that regardless of whether there were clinicoans out there or not. If it isnt a clinic than its a video or a book. Stupid is as stupid does and you cant blame the teachers for that.

Hey, back up now, folks! I never said I blame Parelli for poor results at the bottom, although I blame the program for promising all sorts of mysticalmagical results without the input of the time and insights and judgment development about individual horses that's necessary. Just like a corporate culture, the attitudes come from the top; the smugness and arrogance that this is the ONLY way, the insistence that it's impossible to do a good job without their signed paraphenalia and everything else is inferior, the buzzwords using "natural" as inherently better, ugh. It's like if I told you that every dog must be worked in a flat leather collar, and to do otherwise is cruel, that you don't know what you're doing if you use a prong collar. Can we not accept that regardless of the skill of the rider (or handler) the animal we have before us today will eat us for lunch if worked in this way? Shoot, you can make any piece of equipment cruel; it's not the equipment, it's the handler. Had this woman in our barn been told information that would fit her situation instead of being told that newbies don't have hands good enough for bits so she should stick to the string halter, well, maybe she wouldn't have had to walk with a coupla canes for the better part of a year. But it was clear that her clinicians were more interested in promoting their agenda than in helping her find the best possible connection to her horse.

You are right; stupid is as stupid does, she should have overridden the instructions she was given over the weekend and ridden in a proper bridle. She should also have listened to the barn owner, a very experienced horsewoman, that this particular horse would hurt her if ridden in that manner. But no-o-o-o, she wanted the 'Harmony' and the 'Partnership.' Well, she got partnered to the hospital by a cookiecutter approach that didn't fit her or her horse.

All I'm saying is the information for humane horsemanship is already out there, offered up by people who aren't trying to get in your pocket or make you feel inadequate or question your own judgment; they're trying to develop your judgment (Read True Horsemanship Through Feel). You don't have to become a groupie to a guru or join clubs and ridicule other people for not loading their horse from 25' away.

There are whole armies of people who will tell you that, for example, the Parelli bridle is better. Why? I ask. Well, I'm told, because they're better made. How? I ask. Well, better construction. Better than this Stubben bridle I'm holding? Uhh, yes. How? Well the browband's long enough. Well, wouldn't that depend on the size of your horses' head? There's this squirmy period, where you can see that they've been TOLD that it's better, and that they should pay $100 for the privilege of riding with Parelli's name on their horse's forehead but just accept it mindlessly, like brainwashing. Or those fat rope reins. It's impossible to do some of the finer nuances of English riding comfortably holding those fat reins, but you're doggedly told they're better. They can't tell you why, and your reasoning for why not slides off like it's nothing. It's as if they're totally brainwashed. Where is the development of individuals there? Had these things happened just close to home I could accept that it's just a local phenomena. But hearing about the same thing from many different parts of the country, the disdain for things or ways and hearing "that's not Parelli" tells me that it's a corporate culture thing, not a regional thing. It's the message from the top down.

And I can tell you from firsthand accounts that these guys do some really UGLY stuff when they think nobody's looking, such as dropping, tarping, and beating a horse, then coming with said 'obedient' horse to the clinic the next day. How harmonious is that? Let's get real, folks!

I'm glad some people have had good results with these clinics. Heck, I've been to a few John Lyons weekends myself in past years, back before he was selling bits and feed, and was encouraged to take away things I could use, and leave the rest. Now THAT approach makes sense to me; management situations, as well as horse/rider teams, are unique and highly individual, and should be treated as such. THAT way of doing it encourages people to think for themselves, and not substitute the judgment of some guru who's never even seen your horse.

Okay, I think I'm done ranting now. This subject is a real hot button for me. I've been in horses a long time, and have seen many people lose their good sense and turn into glassy eyed groupies slavishly following the guru du jour, and I don't like it.

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Bottom line is, these people would be like that regardless of whether there were clinicoans out there or not. If it isnt a clinic than its a video or a book. Stupid is as stupid does and you cant blame the teachers for that.

Exactly my point! If you don't have good sense to begin with, then hooking up with a program ain't gonna change anything!!

Criticizing a clinician is just a lot of hot air, IMO.... if you don't like the trainer or the concepts or ideas they are presenting then DON'T use them!!! Simple.

I can't tell you how many dumb things I have seen in my dog training travels, but I don't get so heated up ranting about the evils of them. Everyone needs to learn their own way and personally it turns me off to see people get all 'glazed over' spouting the evils of anothers methods or delivery of those methods. When people who are so adamant about the wrong doing of others, I tend to take that person less seriously than if they weren't trying SO hard to be right.

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Everyone needs to learn their own way and personally it turns me off to see people get all 'glazed over' spouting the evils of anothers methods or delivery of those methods. When people who are so adamant about the wrong doing of others, I tend to take that person less seriously than if they weren't trying SO hard to be right.

Cindy, this is exactly what I'm saying. Maybe it'd be best to sum it up by one student. I ran a college level equine curriculum in the nineties. One student piped up about something in class and started with "Parelli says...." I said "Okay; what do you think?" She hesitated a second, and again repeated what Parelli says. I smiled and said "I'm not really interested in what Parelli says, but I'm very interested in what you think. What do you think?" She was speechless, and then she saw the distinction. The glaze fell from her eyes.

It does go both ways.

Mary Ann – enough is enough. Besides the fact that you represent a lot of short sighted people you are also 110% wrong. The fact is Pat Parelli represents a group of men who in the last 40 or 50 years have changed the way people look at horse training.

The members of this club began with Tom Dorrance his brother Bill Dorannce, Monty Roberts, Richard Shrake, John Lyons, Clinton Anderson, Buck Brannaman, Criag Cameron, Mark Rashid, Dennis Reis in addition to Pat and Linda Parelli.

The over-all concept of what these men do is called natural horsemanship which basically means they don’t use a lot of force to train their horses and they train by using the natural instincts of the horse.

All of these men have very similar techniques. Their concepts of horse training are far more alike than dissimilar. The fact that they looked for small techniques to individualize their programs, like Parelli and the carrot stick is irrelevant. It only demonstrates good business sense. It’s no different than what I do in my business.

The fact that these men have commercialized their training methods has resulted in people like yourself learning how to train your horse. There is no doubt in my mind that you are no Parelli or Tom Dorrance and you would not have come up with Natural Horsemanship training on your own. Closed minded people can’t learn to think outside the box.

Who cares if you dont agree with everything one clincian does or says? The fact is they all have important things to offer.

People who accept the responsibility to owning horses owe it to their horses to become natural horsemen. I fall into this group. People with an open mind will learn something from every clinician. The same is true for dog trainers.

If anyone thinks that I thought up everything in my training videos they are sadly mistaken. I still go to seminars (Cindy and I are going to a Michael Ellis seminar in the Cities in January)

I pick and choose what fits my temperament and training experience. It will be a sad day when I wake up in the morning and think that I can’t learn anything from another dog trainer.

Mary Ann for you to state these opinions on Pat Parelli and only base it on what you have seen from students who went to a Perelli seminar” is ludicrous. You have never been to a Parelli seminar and you base your opinions on untrained people.

It would be nice if we could all develop the timing and skill of a clinician by going to 3 or 4 of his seminars. The fact is we cannot. These men demonstrate a lifetime of TIMING and FEEL for working with horses.

Obviously Perelli is doing something right because he has helped produce young trainers that can do the work in the video I originally posted the link to.

With this said – take your comments on Pat Perelli to private messages. There will be no more insults against a man neither you or I have ever met. Especially when it’s a man I respect as much as any professional dog trainer I know.

LOL... so the horse swished his tail at times... I'd say that was pretty damn impressive nonetheless. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Are you sure that horse wasn't trained on an ecollar?....heh.heh...

mike--it's the same w/mcafee--lots of people in india, and then they try to force you to call a tech suppport line that cost $3.00/minute. so i guess i'll have to pass on the video. but, if this helps anyone: last time i went thru the mcafee tech support deal (after, literally 10 hours on the phone going in circles), i told the indian guy i wanted to talk to a supervisor, insisted upon it, and got a password good for 24 hours for free tech support.

i was SO mad by that point i almost burst a blood vessel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />; but i simply told them that i paid for the service already, and i WAS NOT going to pay for it again.

FYI