if the dog has not yet reacted to the oncoming dog, there is no reason for a correction. my preference, all things considered (giant and powerful dog), is to avoid the necessity of a correction.

your job is to be infallible in paying attention to whatever potential triggers are headed your way and to avoid them whenever possible. that means redirecting the dog's attention to you, before he gets triggered. it means turning around and walking away from an oncoming dog, before he gets triggered. it means impeccable obedience training so that you can put the dog in a down/stay, if you have to, and he won't break it.

i have an english mastiff. he's a huge, powerful dog who was attacked by other dogs several times as a puppy. he used to be dog aggressive, during his adolescence, and we had a pretty terrifying year of it. he is no longer dog aggressive! a great deal of what worked, in my case, is avoiding triggering him and letting the behavior subside and go extinct.

now, my dog is not dominant. he is quite submissive with me. he is dominant still with other dogs, but friendly, unless challenged. one thing i learned the hard way is to simply not take risks with him with other dogs. 90 percent of the time he was friendly and just wanted to play, especially if they were girls. but the rest of the time, if it was a dominant male who was posturing, forget it!

you have to evaluate your dog's temperament before you can decide on the right course of action. whether or not to use a prong or a dominant dog collar. whether or not to issue a severe correction. read all the articles here. PM the professional trainers here. but in the end, your best bet is to have someone look at him live, in person, and tell you what his problem is.

i finally did that with my dog and the trainer's assessment was that he was fearful and needed confidence. that assessment lead to my particular set of solutions, and primary was the necessity of my learning how to be an effective leader. you need a similar assessment.

also, please bear in mind that giant breeds are still adolescents at the age of 2 years and he may settle down on his own in the next year or two, if you prevent him from repeating these behaviors. the more he aggresses, the more it becomes his habitual response. that's why, for now, i recommend you simply avoid these encounters as much as possible.

Yes, please tell us what you know, if anything, about the dog's history.

Also, what steps are you taking at this time? NILIF? Daily obedience training? Bullmastiffs require a strong owner-leader who insists on absolute obedience and has the ability to back it up (mentally since very few if any humans would have the physical strength to take on a fullgrown Bullmastiff).

The best way I've found is to divert the dogs attention and demand that he remain focused on you. In the beginning stages of this before I broke my dog of this completely, I would put him in a sit stay, and have him look at me. When he diverted his gaze toward the other dog, I would pull his face toward me. It's easier to teach the focus command before distractions, but you'll need to reinforce it during distraction. While the dog is in a sit stay I would remove most slack from the leash, and anchor my legs around his back legs while making him look back and up at me. I'm 5'5" and 120lbs and have found this is a good position to hold the dog even if he attempts to break free. In the beginning he's going to resist strongly. I'm not exactly sure what kind of control you have on the dog at this point, or how long you've had him, what your bond is like etc.

I disagree with Alice's theory that if you avoid a behavior it goes extinct. I've found that when you avoid dealing with situations you're only keeping the issue around longer. Instead of going extinct, it hibernates until a situation comes up for it to show itself again. Had I attempted to avoid any situations with my dog he would still have animal aggression issues now. I feel Alice's case is different because the dog had a traumatizing event, and possibly she's just lucky it disappeared. Also if I had not been quick to correct, the dog would have tryed to take over. He's some kind of power monger, I don't know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your dog sounds similar. With a two year old dog that you didn't raise, corrections concern me because you don't really know how he'll take them... Continue working on your bond thru obedience.

Honestly, I think you could benefit from the dominant dog DVD. I wish it was out when I was dealing with my males issues. You might need some help. I've left out a lot of my experiences because they aren't fit for a message board, but I will say I've had to tackle and wrestle with my dog to stop him at points and I could have gotten seriously injured. How I didn't, I have no clue, sheer luck I guess. I'm not at all endorsing this, but when you get into a situation when your dog is about to fight another one who doesn't have a chance, you find yourself with limited options. It's not pretty. This is why I think it would be better to get some professional help or at least videos. I hope you're in good shape <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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I disagree with Alice's theory that if you avoid a behavior it goes extinct. I've found that when you avoid dealing with situations you're only keeping the issue around longer. Instead of going extinct, it hibernates until a situation comes up for it to show itself again. Had I attempted to avoid any situations with my dog he would still have animal aggression issues now. I feel Alice's case is different because the dog had a traumatizing event, and possibly she's just lucky it disappeared. Also if I had not been quick to correct, the dog would have tryed to take over. He's some kind of power monger, I don't know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your dog sounds similar. With a two year old dog that you didn't raise, corrections concern me because you don't really know how he'll take them... Continue working on your bond thru obedience.

just to be clear, i don't have a theory that if you avoid a behavior it will go extinct by itself. in my case, it was a combination of 1. avoiding the reactive behavior to begin with so it doesn't get reinforced, and then 2. reintroduce the trigger gradually to recondition the dog to it.

i'm also advising her to avoid triggering situations for now because she doesn't yet know the appropriate way to handle them. it's better to avoid them than to get into a situation you can't control.

and yes, my dog is his own case history. every dog is. that is why i really think it potentially dangerous for you to take on correcting this dog before you know what you are dealing with. and by that i mean an in-person evaluation from a professional.

certainly, in the meantime practice NILIF and daily obedience training. the big question is how he would respond to a serious correction from you, since you are a new owner. i just don't want to see you get hurt.

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I've had to tackle and wrestle with my dog to stop him at points and I could have gotten seriously injured. How I didn't, I have no clue, sheer luck I guess. I'm not at all endorsing this, but when you get into a situation when your dog is about to fight another one who doesn't have a chance, you find yourself with limited options. It's not pretty. This is why I think it would be better to get some professional help or at least videos. I hope you're in good shape <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

yes. please don't try to wrestle this dog. please get some professional help. if you had raised him or already had a well-established leadership role with him, it might be different. if it were a smaller, less powerful dog, it might be different!

keep asking questions, keep reading, keep getting online advice, watch dvds. but in the end, you need to know whether you are dealing with dominance or fear, and if you are in danger if you correct him. nobody can tell you that with much authority unless they see him! at best we can only guess from what you tell us.

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just to be clear, i don't have a theory that if you avoid a behavior it will go extinct by itself. in my case, it was a combination of 1. avoiding the reactive behavior to begin with so it doesn't get reinforced, and then 2. reintroduce the trigger gradually to recondition the dog to it.

I'm glad you explained that because it wasn't clear to me. Thank you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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certainly, in the meantime practice NILIF and daily obedience training. the big question is how he would respond to a serious correction from you, since you are a new owner. i just don't want to see you get hurt.

I agree and how the dogs reacts to a correction without a major distraction isn't comparable. If a dog is in drive and wants something, it's going to react to a correction differently than if there was no distraction. So if you correct the dog for something in the house and he takes the correction fine, his reaction may differ when he's trying to get at a dog and you give a correction.

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keep asking questions, keep reading, keep getting online advice, watch dvds. but in the end, you need to know whether you are dealing with dominance or fear, and if you are in danger if you correct him. nobody can tell you that with much authority unless they see him! at best we can only guess from what you tell us.

Good post Alice, and Lisa here's a post from the dominant dog section by Jim Nash on why you shouldn't listen to any of our advice <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I know it's hard to find a trainer specializing in the bull and mastiff breeds, let alone a behavioral issue.

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I have quite a bit of experiance dealing with dominant dog issues . With that said , I don't often give advice over the internet about it because I don't feel I can do a proper job of explaining how to deal with these problems or feel it is such an important problem that I would have to see the dog in person in order to determine what is causing the problem .

That's because if I explain something wrong or it's misinterpretted someone can get hurt . There are other very knowledgable trainers with lots of experiance on this board that can give good advice on this type of forum so I leave it up to them .

There are many well intentioned dog owners that have taken care of problems with there pets that often give advice here on Dominant Dogs . I commend these people for stepping up and being responsible dog owners . You are good examples and there are far too few of you . I don't want to deminish what you have accomplished but realize (and it's been said before) you are giving advice based upon a very limited experiance with these problems and your advice no matter how well intentioned can get someone hurt .

Here's why I say this . It has been my experiance with the average dog owner that the majority of dominant dog problems are with dogs that aren't very tough and don't really want to be the pack leader but these dogs are assuming that role because noone else will or they have just learned there is no leader and they can do whatever they want . With these dogs it doesn't take much for the dog owner to regain top dog status , even using poor training techniques or performing proper training techniques poorly . Having been successful with their dog/s they pass their advice on to others . IMO the majority of the time this advice works because it is usually given to dog owners with dogs that are looking to give control of the pack over to anyone showing interest in being the pack leader .

The problem arises when this bad or marginal advice is given to a dog owner that has a dog that is truely willing and capable of fighting for the top dog status and it is tough to tell over the internet what kind of dog some of these people asking for help has . Use bad training advice or poorly attempt good training advice with these types of dogs and bad things will often happen .

For newbies looking for advice on such important issues IMO if the person offering that advice gives it based upon the few pets they have owned , I would do alot more research and talk to some experianced dog trainers before ever following that advice . If noone offers you advice on this forum for your problem/s it is a good sign you should seek out a qualified professional to deal with you problem/s in person .

It will be much easier for people seeking help to sort through all the advice given to them if others leave it up to trainers with lots of experiance to give that advice on such important issues .

Yes, these are valid points -- If you have an untrained dog that is too massive & powerful for your strength level or handling prowess, better not walk him in public...

I like how Ed Frawley calls a prong collar "power steering for dogs" -- but IF the dog has aggression issues (particularly displaced aggression) a prong collar may agitate him to the point where he becomes handler-aggressive (which can happen in a nano-second)...

Ed's Dominant & Aggressive Dog DVD is excellent (there's a frightening scene where Ed & a helper are doing man-work with a German Shepherd wearing a prong, when the dog suddenly & unexpectedly re-directs his attack onto Ed) -- That's why I warned this poster against using a prong on that particular dog...

Thanks for all the information and advice...I'll keep you posted on the subject, and if anyone has any other words of wisdom, send them my way. I'm sure I'll be asking more questions in the future.
Lisa

FWIW, my Boerboel (they are largely Bullmastiff) was intermittently dog aggressive when I first got her. Where I live, guard dogs are extremely common, and going for a walk involves passing a lot of fenced houses with dogs launching themselves against the fence barking and snarling. Most of the time my dog would walk serenely by, but once in a while she would launch at them like a cruise missile (actually, an impressive sight).

Here's how I handled it: I found that I usually had a very slight warning that she was going to launch. Usually, she would go tense and ears forward just beforehand. I would prepare by bracing myself, and when she lunged forward, I would instantly correct with just about everything I have (I weigh about 200 lbs). This was initially with a choke collar and later with a prong collar once I learned how much more effective they were. I didn't "hang" her, but she did end up with her front legs in the air from her own intertia and my pull in the other direction. Once I had her attention, I immediately turned in the direction we'd come from to take her away from the dogs. Once away, I went through a few basic obedience commands (sit and down, primarily) to get her in listening mode. Then, I heeled her back to the barking dogs that had provoked her the first time and had her sit and stay. After a few seconds, I would reverse her away again, and then repeat the process except that I would either have her sit longer or I would heel her past the dogs and expect her to walk by without letting them distract her. After several runs past the dogs, she was usually very good about obeying my commands. The point was to use the barking dogs behind the fence as a major distraction while having her obey me. The great ting is that this is a real, live distraction of an angry dog, but it isn't actually physically threatening because the dog is behind a fence. After doing this on a few walks, she stopped lunging (on the rare occasions when she looks like she might, I now heel her or have her sit as soon as I see her go alert rather than let her lunge and correct her). This also seems to have worked for other dogs on leashes. When we see them, I have her sit or heel, and she either ignores them or at least holds her sit or heel.

I don't think I'll ever change the fact that she's dog aggressive, but I've had good success in convincing her that she is better off paying attention to me rather than her instinct.

My dog is quite soft and NOT handler aggressive. If you have any concerns about your ability to do this, you should probably have a muzzle and maybe a second person to help you control the leash. I found that it was useful to be able to vary my distance and start with my dog farther away from the fence and then gradually go closer.

I occasionally reinforce this by stopping in front of barking, snarling dogs behind a fence (whether or not my dog is responding) and having her sit. People who walk by usually find it impressive the way mine ignores them.

I don't know if this is appropriate for you, but it has worked well for me.

I have used a similar technique with my dominant dog-aggressive GSD, except I used a dominant dog collar. She now ignors almost all dogs, even if they are barking wildly at her. She is only 73 pounds, however, and not handler-aggressive. Also, I have had her for over 8 years, and know her very well, and have a very good bond with her, so I don't know if this is relevant for your BM.

donald, i do what you describe with my mastiff as well. the difference though is i don't wait for him to lunge. if i see the early aggression signs i correct him right there. the only times he's been corrected for lunging is when i didn't catch him early enough to prevent it.

but yes, using crazy barking dogs as a training distraction is a great technique and very effective. whenever we pass a yard with insanely barking dogs, my mastiff immediately goes into a heel and looks up at me! he knows now that that is his required behavior when faced with such a distracting inducement!!

HOWEVER, you and i both have submissive dogs that have bonded with us. lisa may not. this makes a huge difference. she really can't follow this advice without finding out what she is dealing with FIRST.