LOL Jenni <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't think Mike meant to be offensive, he just probably hasn't known anyone that has truly needed a PPD, so he can't empathize. I can remember having some ridiculous ideas when I was younger that changed drastically after I'd experienced more of life.

Mike, there's also people who move to questionable areas because they are the last place a stalker would think to look for them. Then there are people who are too poor or too old to move. The older ones might be living in an area that was once nice, but changed.

I don't think decent people living in a bad area should have to move. I think the people sliming up the area should move. Moving almost seems cowardly... What about the old and weak that you leave behind when you move? The ones who can't move?

Judy said:

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So, then, my question now would be (to you Anne and everyone else) should I run far away from the professionals in my area who tell me NOT to do any work on my own <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> !

I have held off doing anything with my female because I didn't want to do anything a trainer wouldn't like me doing. My thoughts were, every trainer has their own method of training and I didn't want to do anything that could conflict with their training. My plan was to okay any videos or activities with the trainer I decided on, before I started anything on my own. I also thought that it would be best if a trainer evaluted her before I started anything. Good luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Judy,

I think there are really two issues here.

A. How much personal protection do you need? Are you like the cases that Will mentions under a real threat? If so, you should not count on a 13 month old shepherd to defend you effectively, nor should you count on training him to the level you need in a short amount of time.

In my case, my wife and I are under no direct threat, but the deterent of having a large GSD in the household is useful. It happens that after 2 years of training we began doing protection scenarios with hidden sleeves, muzzles, etc., and he showed that he would bite for real. Would I count on him in every situation under every scenario? No, we haven't trained him for that and don't expect it. Hence, the recognition that a dog is only one layer of a security that you provide for yourself. In this you have to take a hard look (and if the threat is there, have a professional help) at your situation and the potential weaknesses in your security.

The second issue is how to develop your dog. Ed's videos provide a great primer in developing a dog either for sport or for personal protection.

I think he even used the analogy of a teenager learning karate at one point, and it is a great analogy. When you train your dog in prey you are giving him the fundamental skills and confidence he needs to learn before being able to deal with a real threat. This is why most clubs would be a good place for you to go at this stage with your dog. They will help with the bite development (through prey) and corresponding obedience that you need to develop at this point in this dog's life.

I'd recommend a set of Ed's videos as well. I have the following ones (among others) and they wil help you to understand the development that is needed to train a dog for personal protection. I'd recommend:

1. "drive, focus and grip" How to train a dog in prey and much, much more.
2. "bite training puppies" if you don't have it. It might be remedial, but there is good info here.
and
3. "the first steps of defense". Your dog is probably not ready for defensive work now, but you should DEFINITELY get this video. You need to understand the real difference in prey and how you do defensive work later to help train the dog in how to react in a real situation.

As Kevin says, it would be good to go to a good club is to see dogs worked and developed. You learn a lot about what's going on in the dog's head by this experience and you'll learn a lot about your dog as well. This also (as Kevin noted) provides a basis for the PPD. A dog that has been developed correctly at a Sch club can be tweaked (if it has the right stuff) to serve as a protection dog.

The question of time isn't really the right question. The dog (and handlers) will progress and learn at their own pace. Setting a schedule will only infuriate you.

So, my opinion on your questions:

1. Like I say above, it depends on you and the dog. Going to a club and titling your dog will teach you a lot and give you a wealth of information

2. My opinion of "bringing the dog up to speed" would be doing that fundamental work in bite development and the corresponding obedience. You don't as a teenager to engage in a knife fight without training and you shouldn't ask a dog to defend you in personal protection without the right development that goes from prey to defense over a long period of time.

3. 13 months is plenty old enough to do the prey work to do bite development. It is almost certainly too young to do the type of defensive work you'd want for a PPD.

4. If you have a good helper available who can do the development work in prey, going once a week won't ruin the dog and would provide a good experience for you to learn. I went to a trainer about that often and while my dog was young, I learned a great deal by watching the other dogs work. If I had the experience I could have done a good bit of the work myself, but I wasn't experienced enough (or confident enough) to do it effectively.

good luck,

Alan...

Barbara, I was just making a point. What he said was short-sighted, to say the least. Age has nothing to do with it; I doubt he's much younger than I am, if at all. As far as empathizing-I've never endured starvation, yet I can certainly understand why this would not be a desirable way to live. I don't think he was even 100% serious; or at least I hope he wasn't. Just pointing out a major flaw in a blanket statement like that...nothing personal.

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I always say... if you REALLY need a protection dog, stop pissing people off or move house <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My god, can't anyone take a joke anymore? I know there's people who technically NEED it, but hasn't the whole "multi-level security" thing been discussed before? Alarm systems, guns, big guy in a black suit and dark glasses following you around everywhere etc?

Will, did you not say yourself that you will not sell a PPD to someone who doesn't own a gun? It just annoys me that people treat a dog like their first, last and only line of defense. If someone is this determined to get you, the dog's as good as dead n I hope you have a gun!

I'm sorry you lost respect for me because I made a joke, but if anything I would have thought you'd agree that people need to stop counting on a dog to save their life, because dog's aren't bulletproof, the most effective thing a dog can do in a very bad situation is to bark before he gets shot n tell you "hey someone's down here". If I were stalking someone n a dog became a problem then bye bye doggy. If the stalker doesn't wanna tangle with a dog n doesn't have the heart to shoot the dog, then the dogs bark or presence in its own will be enough deterrent.

I met someone recently who had a problem with her babysitters boyfriend, she fired the babysitter n they keep coming back to the house pissed off, she has a PPD, but the dog is old, I believe 12 or 13 years old now. Apparently the dog didn't bite, probably combination of age and lack of maintainence training. The lady didn't wanna keep a gun in the house. What if the guy comes back again but with a gun, n the dog won't bite, n she didn't wanna buy a gun herself?

All I was saying is that a dogs presence and bark is the most important factor in a PPD, that's all most people need, and if you need more then you need more than JUST a dog too. I know you train PPD's for a living, but like I said, you won't sell a PPD to a gun wielding client, so obviously you don't see a dog as the only line of defense either.

Fact of the matter is, most people really don't need more than a bark, n the few who do need alot more than just a dog (but I'm not excluding the dog!!!). I never said nobody should own a PPD, but even people with a PPD should move house away from their problem if it's really that serious, n if the move is unsuccessful then they definately need more than just a dog -- I never said "if you REALLY need a protection dog, stop pissing people off or move house and don't buy a dog" did I? No, because I believe in PPD's, I just don't believe in what many people think they are, and I also don't believe that most people who want a PPD need a PPD at all.

Again sorry if I ruffled some feathers, I love how everything gets taken so seriously, c'mon there was a smiley there n all! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Maybe I should clarify my jokes with a 6 or 7 paragraph supplement immediately after it so I can avoid doing this at 8am when I'm supposed to be feeding the dogs and heading out for training.

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but like I said, you won't sell a PPD to a gun wielding client

Oops meant to say "you will only sell a PPD to a gun wielding client"...

Mike,
Sorry, it's not a joke to me when I've had several clients weeping in fear over the changes that they've had to make to protect themselves from stalkers.

After you've experienced that level of sorrow that I've felt for those people, come on back and let's see if you have the same flippant attitude.

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Hi Judy,

A. How much personal protection do you need? Are you like the cases that Will mentions under a real threat?

Good question: No. Thank goodness. Examples of where I'd have needed or could have used a snarling, stand-by-my-side GSD are too many to list. I'll list only a few, most of which the women on this board can relate to better than the men for obvious reasons:

1) Guy grabbed and held my 2 boys (ages 11 and 12) because he thought they poured water on his sidewalk! Heard them scream, found them with the guy holding 1 in each arm and them struggling to get away. I had to punch the guy 3 times before he let them go. Obviously having a controlled GSD here would have kept me from having to punch him.

2) My 16 year old son's ex girlfriend decides she doesn't want to be an ex and comes to our house and brings along her older brother and his friends to beat the crap out of my son.

3) Jogging on a main road and am followed on several occasions over the years. (I've lived in the same town for 35 years). The road I would run on is a very popular road for runners, bikers and cars. Details left out for brevity purposes but I will tell you that it was always terrifying and I don't think any of these guys would have harassed me if I had a snarling GSD.

So, no, I have had close calls but no one pointing a gun in my face. No drug dealers on the corner, no drive by shootings. I live in a very wealthy area and yet, somehow, have had enough of these more than uncomfortable incidences that, well, I'm just sick of it and want a dog with me that keeps psychos from even thinking of me as a target.

Hope that clears up what would be the best "PPD" training I need to embark upon.

Judy

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..... As far as empathizing-I've never endured starvation, yet I can certainly understand why this would not be a desirable way to live. I don't think he was even 100% serious; or at least I hope he wasn't. Just pointing out a major flaw in a blanket statement like that...nothing personal.

Well, Mike's joke and the results educated me.

I realize he was making a joke; I, however, was totally ignorant. I admit I had had an image in my mind of corporate execs who either worried about kidnapping or preferred to believe they were important enough for a kidnapper to focus on..... it had never occurred to me that victims of stalking were the image I should've had. Even though I hear and read (and even know personally) about plenty of stalking horrors, I never made that connection.

I was defiinitely ignorant <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. I think it might be a common area of ignorance, so I'm glad it came up.

Oh boy...Seems I've gotten Mike in some trouble. For the record, I stand by both my statements: his comment was short-sighted, *and* I'm sure he wasn't really serious. I really was just bringing up the flip side to that coin, not because Mike said it, but because a LOT of people think this way...he just happened to open it up and spark my response. Nothing personal at all, and I really don't think his one flip remark tells his true feelings toward people w/PPDs. I get some strange looks when someone asks me what I'm training my dog for (and I only tell them if they're really persistant). I just tell them I have bad taste in men <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />! It shuts them up every time! No more questions, and I'm on my merry way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.

Fact is, I agree with both Mike and Will. Will knows better than anyone how serious some people's need for a dog is, and Mike's moving theory is something I totally agree with. Don't whine and act scared and buy a dog until you've done everything in your power to avoid a situation. However, not everyone can move. I disagree that moving is cowardly; moving is the intelligent thing to do if you have genuine, warranted fear for your life. Not everyone can move. The gun thing is a great point, but I don't think a gun is the best weapon for someone until they've had *extensive* training, and dogs are great for stalling the intruder/attacker and buying a few extra seconds to use that gun, call the police, etc. Unless someone is going to sleep w/their finger on the trigger, there may not be enough time without a dog as a distraction (at the very least).

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I reread the thread, and I think it came off a bit harsh on my part; I just am constantly surprised that people don't really comprehend the need some people have for a dog. It's not ego or a sense of prestige or self-importance. It's the smart thing to do if you have any self-preservation instinct.

I have 3 dogs. One I think would of protected me if health problems didn't put her training on hold and I'm pretty sure the other one will as she matures and we are able to work and test her more.

However if I'm walking a dog that makes people cross the road when they see us it's my 85 pound white german shepherd pet. For some reason that dog just looks intimadating.

Trust me, in the event of a real attack I have no doubt he would run for the hills and if he ever does bite someone it would be a fear bite type situation.

There's a trade off that only you can decide if you want to make. A dog like my male but with a little better nerves would stop problems before they started, but the before is the only thing I would bet the farm on. However, he is an easy dog to live with and I can be more relaxed around him in a social setting. My girls, especially the youngest, would probably protect but a lot of my decisions are based on their training and I have to be very diligent with them and their interactions with people. And they are time consuming. Even Pepper who is feeling the effects of HD has to have daily physical and mental exercise.

Once you decide what you want you get to face the puppy, green dog, or trained adult decision............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />