Probably the reason I posted in the first place is because before I came here, I had boogered up my training(or lack there of)a lot. I had to do a lot of backtracking and let some problems fix themselves with time. I think Kristine's last post says everything the best and I still have to remind myself what she said alot. Every problem that my dog had or encounters now is traceable to the way I trained or again lack there of. Its sometimes too easy to jump to corrections and only later see a flaw in how you taught it. Not talking about you (probably talking more about myself) just thinking through the keyboard.

Also, if I'm ever in Indiana, I'll know I'm in your neighbor hood with all the multi-colored squirrels running around.

i can see i have a lot to learn, and judging by how many people have tried to explain it, i will probably not be able to learn without watching a dvd. the initial reason i thought what i was doing was the right step forward was ed himself had replied in response to one of my posts that it was time for an e-collar, therefore i reasoned that i could use a quick slap on the butt with a paintball for a remote correction.

i haven't the faintest idea about how i'm to redirect destiny's very intense prey drive to me when she's hauling ass after a squirrel at about 30MPH, and it doesn't sound like something that can be explained over the internet.

however what i have now are two dogs who both recalled great last night, without the prescence of the "poppy shooty monster" in my hands, and with the prescence of a cat by the back shed. the cat trotted off, the dogs finished their business and went to bed in their respective rooms.

since they recall fantastically at the moment, and i obviously in light of popular opinion don't want to use the paintgun any more, should i start a rewarding program to enforce the behaviour? i already praise every time in the hopes of etching the behaviour in their souls without corrections.

it mightn't sound like it from the original post, but i was very heavy on corrections for the first few weeks they lived here, it was all i knew. the poor girls, i feel deeply sorry for the confusion they must have felt. the only training experience i'd had was with a guy who trained working cattle dogs, as is quoted elsewhere on this site "time is money to these people".

since reading ed's articles, i've been trying to only place corrections when i knew they would work, hence in almost a week of hourly outside visits there's been but 5 paintballs popped (one of which was inside).

but yeah if there's a way i can do this without corrections, i would be very happy to learn. if i have to wait for the dvd, i'll have to wait. destiny would definitely benefiet from the less corrections the better, with her past experiences.

hell, just last night, BIL wanted to go to bed, growled at her to come, and she laid down with her tail tapping the floor. i get up, walk into the hallway, say in a sweet voice "dezzy, bed", she jumps right in there. i say "more sugar, less vinegar", and i am hoping he got it. this dog really won't function if she's scared of you, but she's a good candidate for a completely new thread.

anyway i'm rambling (again), so i'll end with this:

 Quote: Michael_Wise

Also, if I'm ever in Indiana, I'll know I'm in your neighbor hood with all the multi-colored squirrels running around.

not quite... this is the first time ever that any paintgun i owned was pointed at something that wasn't a plywood target, a soda bottle, or a person wearing correct safety equipment.

good for you... ilove ppl that love to learn im one like that myself ieven consider for afew secs yor shooting idea before ihade canclled it complitlly.
what kind of dogs are your dogs and what age?
does your dogs has an item e.g puppyroll, tug, ball they love to play with using theyr prey or maybe atreat.
think how you can use they prey drive to controll tham with that items and how you can raise their prey on thos items, or maybe other drives. or maybe just shape your next puppy so you could do so...
dont get me wrong theres nothing wrong with avoidnece an corections as long as you use tham on time and the corect way.
and for me time is money too but maybe cause im dealling with human lifes im so obsesive of the perfection. donuu...
sefi.s

 Quote: jamie fraser

i can see i have a lot to learn, and judging by how many people have tried to explain it, i will probably not be able to learn without watching a dvd. ....

Yes, you can. While you plan for DVD number 302, then the eCollar DVD, you can either read the Groundwork articles at Leerburg.com (plus the many more detailed articles), or you can even print a free eBook from Leerburg.

http://leerburg.com/dogtrainingebooks.htm

On that page, there are at least two you would enjoy as starters.

All you need is Adobe Reader, which you most likely have, know it or not, and which is downloadable free on that page if you don't. All simple, walked through, no computer expertise required at all.

The DVDs are definitely the way to go, but while you save for them, there is so much info readily available and free(!) that there's really no reason to put off motivational training.

Example: The recall can absolutely positively be trained motivationally. If the word you use has been "tainted" by calling for a correction or the like, or if you called and then chased, then choose a different word. If you were saying "Come!" you can say "Here!" and make coming to you be something the dog wants a command to do because you're the source of fun, praise, and treats. You can also use a long line, still creating the desire in the dog to WANT to come to you, but having backup just in case so the dog never learns that the command is optional.

This sets the dog up to win.

Just one example.

Well I haven't read all of the remarks that have been posted since yesterday, but I have slept on this topic so I will post a comment for Jaimie, of the objective sort.

Jamie, I'm sure it must feel like there are a lot of people attacking you and your idea. I know you mentioned a similar post dealing with a sling shot. I didn't try to find it but I'm sure it got a similar list of answers. I realize now that you are only doing what you have found works for you and your situation. I don't look down on anyone for using what works but when aversives of any kind are involved in any training program one has to weigh the pros and cons. Yes, it is working for now but at what cost? I mean we have dogs to enhance our enjoyment of life, right? If my "best bud" learned to fear me I' d feel like crap for it. The reason most have condemned this idea is because we see the potential for a counter productive result and the threat of real injury. I hope you realize that and don't take any negative feed back personally.

I know you mentioned that there are those who abuse various corrective tools and you are 100% right, there are people out there that do. Mosly from a lack of experience. The trick is to learn how to use the resources available and how to properly apply those tools to your training program. There is so much info on this forum that the average dog owner would probably never have to enroll in a formal obedience class, once they have found this place...LOL. The are tons of folks here who love to help out with training hurdles, problems, even just a new trick or two; anything really this chat forum is full of dog lovers and I'm sure that you are one of us! Like I said please don't take any of the feed back you have received personally; and as long as you keep the best interests of your dog, your training goals, and the reasons why you got a dog in the first place in mind then you WILL get there! Best of luck, we're here to help and learn and have fun. Let us know how it turns out!!!

connie,

i've poured over the e-books and articles on ed's site quite a few times, trying to soak up as much information as i can. i still can't figure out what sefi seems to be saying, that i can somehow redirect the drive from chasing a squirrel to me?

i started out training "come" with a long line. i used rewards, and still do, if i don't have food handy, since both dogs are ball driven, i make them either come or heel before i throw the ball again. they come exceptionally well, even when there's the distraction of people walking by, an ambulance siren, whatever. it's just the damn squirrels/cats/birds... anything that will run, all bets are off. this was prior to the last week's "training" of course.

now, both dogs have repeatedly come, even under the most intense distraction. a cat, tearing from the backdoor across the backyard and up a tree, no problem... the command is still first priority. i should note that this was without the paintgun in my hand, assuming an e-collar worked the same way and i had one i probably wouldn't have stimulated them at all in the past two days - they are doing absolutely wonderful.

now given that i've done the long line + reward thing quite a while ago... they would already come under any distraction with a long line, just when off leash, squirrels would take priority, what step did i miss?

it just seemed like a "remote correction" was the next natural step. i did it, and their behaviour is absolutely satisfying. i keep practicing and rewarding them constantly because i'd like to keep the corrections (whatever they may be) to a minimum. even if i had an e-collar, i would rather the positive reinforcement rather than negative. personally i'm hoping the need for a correction doesn't arise between now and when i start working, and then i can put this whole contraversial mess behind me.

but please, if i messed up and missed a step, let me know. to recap, this is what order they were taught in.

1) "here" taught in a very scary manner, completely in the wrong way, prior to me finding this website. i never use this word any more, it's ruined for them in my opinion.

2) "come" taught with a long line and small pieces of hotdog, inside.

3) "come" reinforced without the long line, with hotdog rewards, inside.

4) "come" worked on ouside, with long line + hotdog rewards, including distractions such as squirrels (not under my control).

5) try it with destiny off line, with reward in hand, squirrel+cats take priority. by the time i catch the dog, it's too late for a correction. i even tried leaving the long line on the dog so i could run and jump on the line, but i can't catch these dogs when they're in full chase!

i did both dogs the same way (seperately of course), and ruby failed in a different way than destiny. ruby would break from the chase, but it's very delayed (sometimes up to 20s). if she was sniffing something on the ground, she would look at me with her nose still buried in it, then come after maybe 30 seconds or so.

now, at least for the time being, this behavior seems to be rectified.

i must stress again, on the long line none of this behavior happened.

Jamie, I suggested the Krasnovian post because in addition to being hilarious, it is also painfully true and we have all trained in Krasnovian at one time or another. From your posts, it sounds as though you are training with "punishment". The dog will eventually learn, but it will be the hard way, with lots of mistakes, frustrating for both of you.

Some great stuff has been offered by posters on this thread; timing, treats, longlines, the information that Ed Frawley has freely provided. Connie is absolutely right about motivational training. You won't go wrong following their advice. I will add that if finances are an issue, as they can be for most of us, use a long piece of clothesline for a longline.

IMO there is an element of mockery in enforcing commands by shooting your dog with a paintgun. As my Grannie would have said, "It ain't fittin'."

 Quote: bradley t. martin

...but when aversives of any kind are involved in any training program one has to weigh the pros and cons. Yes, it is working for now but at what cost? I mean we have dogs to enhance our enjoyment of life, right? If my "best bud" learned to fear me I' d feel like crap for it. The reason most have condemned this idea is because we see the potential for a counter productive result and the threat of real injury. I hope you realize that and don't take any negative feed back personally.

...this chat forum is full of dog lovers and I'm sure that you are one of us! Like I said please don't take any of the feed back you have received personally; and as long as you keep the best interests of your dog, your training goals, and the reasons why you got a dog in the first place in mind then you WILL get there!

This is exactly what I tried to say, but Mr. Martin said it so much better.
Ruth

OK, details.

I see now that you got to the distraction phase with your recall. In your first post I gathered that you were using the paint gun to correct before distraction proofing, thereby correcting before distraction proofing AND correcting with a very poor device.

Now I see more .... maybe you were doing only part 2 (correcting with a very poor device).

Number 4 in your post:

First, if number 4 had really been successful with "distractions including squirrels," then it would work without the long line too, if by "successful" you mean that the dog complied without being reeled in. If that didn't happen, then I wouldn't term it successful.

So then if I was NOT successful when the dog was in prey drive after a squirrel, then I would indeed start eCollar training. If I couldn't afford that yet (here's the kicker), I would not use anything as poorly-timed as any kind of gun that had to be aimed and fired. Not fast enough, not sure enough, too dangerous, just not useful, IMO. I'd keep the dog on a line or I'd refrain from calling the dog when I could not enforce the command.

JMO. I don't want to use any poorly-timed correction (ever), because a poorly-timed correction is much worse then none; it's a correction unconnected in the dog's mind with what I want to correct. I don't want to inflict what appears to the dog to be random punishment.

And I don't want to train that the recall is optional. Every time the dog does not comply and you can't reel him in or correct instantly, the "optional" is reinforced.

Did I read everything right this time?

All JMO. Others will hop in with details about crittering.

P.S. I admire people who ask and read.