i think you are making a mistake to try to make him aloof when his natural temperament is friendly. it's another example of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

be glad he is trustworthy and safe around other people. there is a lot of joy to be had from a pet who loves people.

if you are worried about him being stolen or poisoned, do not allow him outside when you are not with him. period. this would be true even if he were an aloof dog.

if you are worried that he won't protect you from bad characters, i wouldn't worry about that. in my long experience, the friendliest dogs, if they are stable and well-balanced, recognize a genuine threat when they see one and they do take action.

in any event, you will never know if your dog has that kind of common sense until he is tested by a real event, and so i hope he's never tested.

don't mess with his head and enjoy him for who he is. if you are concerned about your personal safety, carry pepper spray or a baton or learn martial arts. even the best protection dog can be shot by an assailant. in that regard, you might be better off that your dog is obviously not threatening.

Judy, I understand what you're trying to convey. I think your point has been misconstrued. I know where you're coming from, and I, too, would be disappointed to a point, I guess, but keep in mind that a dog with a clear head MAY just surprise you one day if a real threat were to present itself. I wouldn't bet on it, but it's a maybe. In all fairness to the Village Idiot, none of the situations you mention were actually threatening. I would bet, in your profession, that the Fed Ex guys shows up often. Why would Gunnar be upset by this? It's what he's used to. I would also bet that the kid had stood waiting for the bus in that same spot before; why would Gunnar be suspicious of him?

I don't let people pet my dogs, but I would not be upset by my dog allowing children or teenagers to pet him. Give Gunnar some credit where credit is due; he did not lick a burglar or a rapist (he might, though,lol). You don't really know any better than some of the Sch people "know" their dogs would protect them. Just because a dog is aloof and suspicious does not for one second mean that they'd actually stick around and defend. I don't really care what anyone says; until a dog has been tested in very real situations and under a great deal of stress, you will not know what that dog will do. The only difference between your dog and the average sport dog is that yours is lacking the deterrance factor with his friendliness.

Honestly, in your neighborhood situation, I'd be thankful that he's the way he is and the neighbors like him. It's no fun to worry about your dog being poisoned b/c some a-hole thinks he's being a hero and eliminating a "dangerous" dog. Trust me. Quick example: Mia, my uber-friendly, typically goofy, APBT is a NUT over kids. She used to live in a family with 5 of them. She is about the least threatening dog you've ever laid eyes on. A friend and I were setting up a surprise home-invasion scenario for Caleb. I was going to put Mia away before he got there. I'd only had her a week and this was not something she needed to be involved in; the last thing I need is a protective APBT. Well, we got our signals crossed, and he burst into the house at 2am before Mia was put away and before Caleb was let loose. My nutball Pit did an impressive bark and hold at the front door, never backing down one bit, nor advancing on the intruder. She very confidently held her ground, which shocked both of us. I would've expected her to head for the hills or lick him to death. Somehow, she recognized that this was different, and her excellent reaction was surprising to say the least. If he'd moved, she'd probably have bitten him. To me, that's ideal-I'd have had enough time to grab a weapon or call 911...and the guy would've been unharmed as long as he didn't keep advancing.

Sorry for the long post, but you can only do so much as far as predicting a dog's behavior in a dangerous situation. I know you don't really count on your dog to save your life, Judy, but I wanted to share that encounter as an example of how a dog with the Village Idiot personality can surprise you. You're far better off with Gunnar than some nutjob, unstable menace (which I know you know-you were just venting).

Carol, I totally agree with you about certain dogs knowing the difference between threatening and non-threatening. Somewhat reassuring, I personally would not count on it in a life threatening event...

Judy, I did not mean to come across as so hardcore in my post about PPD, but you brought up the man with the gun to your head and I couldn't resist...I understand your want of a dog who would protect you in that event, but Gunnar, as you know, is not that dog. Maybe, but it's a big big maybe IMO.

Oh no, I do not count on it at all, that is why I carry a Glock 40....I do trust myself and my instincts
You always wonder "what would my dog do in this situation?" and I found out a bit about him that I wondered about.
The best scenario is when you do not know it is coming and actual adrenaline plays a role.

Judy you are missing what people are trying to tell you. What you are looking for out of your dog is something other than what your dog is. You have considered bitework in the past, I don't follow forums very closely anymore these days so whatever developments have happened with your dog in the past year are beyond me. I was simply stating examples of what a dog is and what a dog can and cannot be. OK so you don't want to train your dog in bitework, but you are wanting your dog to be something he is not, so everything I and most other people said still applies. You need to take the information you are given and apply it to your situation, even if it's not spelled out for you. What I was getting at was simply "a dog is a dog is a dog", you cannot change what your dog is, neither can anyone else, and those who do try end up screwing it up sooner or later. Correcting a dog for paying attention to people is simply obedience under distraction, but at the end of the day when you are not there n somebody acts very happy and enthusiastic toward your dog... guess what? Your dog will forget all that training "because mommy isn't there" and go up to that person!!! NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO!! There's sports where there is an exercize for the dog to be poison proofed... guess what, I bet 99% of those dogs will eat food off the ground if they are hungry and there is nobody there to correct them. You cannot change what is genetically there, I don't care what anyone says. Short of tying your dog to the fence n having everyone that walks by slap him on the face for 2 weeks, he will always like people and when you are not there, he will always be happy when someone talks to him in an excited happy voice. To have an aloof dog you need a dog with the genetics to not trust people. I have an aloof dog, n he was the happiest damn puppy in the world. Even though he doesn't give a crap about people petting him (me included about 90% of the time), if you act excited to him he will still come to you. I don't really care anymore who pets my dog. My female hates people n theres no sweet-talking her, it takes several days for her to warm up to people, that's her genetics. She won't accept food, she will bark at you, and when she is more mature she will probably bite someone for trying to pet her. I cannot make her social, I have evened her out a bit thru socializing and behavioral work so she is still somewhat approachable and I can tell her to shut up, but she will ALWAYS have that edge to her, it will never go away no matter how hard I work on it, if I wanted to that is, which I don't, I just want her approachable without barking at everyone n making it impossible for me to hear what people are saying to me with yap yap yap in my ear. It's the opposite of your dog and I cannot ever make her act the way your dog does, ever. You cannot change genetics, you can only turn their behavior into obedience n then it is merely obedience under distraction.

Judy, my last GSD, Sierra, would NOT take treats or any food from anybody's hand, ever (except me or my son). That's easy enough to teach...it's just like any other thing you've taught him, same principle. In this case, you have your friends or son's friends first try to give him a treat while you have Gunnar on leash with whatever collar he responds to most. A friend tries to give him a treat, if Gunnar goes for it, correct him (whichever correction you have been using on him that works best, a simple NO may do it). You do this several times with the same person, then several times with someone else, then several times with several different people, everytime someone you know is around you do it. Then you'll have to proof it with Gunnar off leash.

As for the Fed-Ex man and the teenager, I agree with what Jenni said about Gunnar being familiar with them (Gunnar may not be familiar with the teenager except by scent and that tells a dog a lot). If it's the same Fed-Ex man all the time, Gunnar knows him so he doesn't consider him a threat, as the Fed-Ex man has never been threatening to you. Gunnar might surprise you if that ever happened. So basically, the Fed-Ex man (even the teenager who has never been threatening) are not "strangers" to Gunnar.

To get Gunnar to ignore strangers, you might want to enlist the help of a trainer/decoy, not to make Gunnar aggressive but to try to "cozy" up to Gunnar, so you can teach Gunnar not to pay attention and ignore it. Where you take it from there, I'm not sure, perhaps the trainer/decoy would have suggestions. If the trainer belongs to a club, maybe he could have people from the club come to the door or try to reach over the front yard wall, etc.

I don't see it as trying to "make" a social dog aloof, I just see it as another thing to teach a dog. I could be wrong, but I believe a dog can be taught to ignore strangers, not be made aggressive but just ignore if they try to make friends with him.

Edited to add: just read Mike's last post, and I feel he knows a heck of a lot more than I do about training a dog to not take a treat or ignore someone. My last GSD didn't take treats from anyone, and I think she would pass the test if I wasn't there, but she was naturally aloof anyway.

Edited by Sandy Moore (03/07/2007 11:13 AM)
Edit reason: cause I read Mike's post

Hi Judy, I think I know what you are getting at. You want a friendly, but aloof sort of dog. Not a friendly dog who will go with just anyone or eat anything given to them. I'm pretty sure that Ed has an article on this website about teaching food avoidance, but I'm doggoned if I can find it. I just know I've seen discussion on it here. Maybe the search feature will help you there. This is a pretty basic thing that I'm pretty sure is taught to even show dogs for their own protection. I know I don't want just anyone giving food to my dogs, even if it isn't poison, it's usually junk.
I think correcting the dog for overly friendly overtures to strangers would be enough that a smart dog would understand that it is not behavior of which you approve, without making the dog mean and suspicious.
(not a professional trainer)

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa everyone.....
Judy knows that her dog is friendly and that this will always be so.
I think that we are getting a little on the PPD side with her and that is not what she wants from what I can tell. She is not looking for a "bite" dog.

I like my dogs to be friendly since they are search dogs, but they get to be friendly on MY terms and not their own. People who approach when we are working and training are asked to leave the dogs alone and my dogs pretty much ignore them. However, if permission is granted, then all bets are off and the dogs are allowed to be petted by people.

There is no reason she cannot try to teach her dog to be a little more aloof. It may not ever be what she really wants, but she can try to find a happy medium for both her and Gunnar.
If I am reading correctly this is what she is asking for help with and it was misunderstood a bit.....

 Quote: michele mcatee

Judy, I did not mean to come across as so hardcore in my post about PPD, but you brought up the man with the gun to your head and I couldn't resist...I understand your want of a dog who would protect you in that event, but Gunnar, as you know, is not that dog. Maybe, but it's a big big maybe IMO.

I didn't say anything like I wanted him to protect me in that event. I did say, "I just don't want him to wag his tail as he waits to be pet". How do I make myself any more clearer...

I DO NOT WANT A PP DOG! I don't want to turn my dog into something he's not.

I want to know how to train him when things come up to be prepared to NOT go to a stranger that's calling him over or NOT take the treat the stranger is offering.

I cannot believe that this is putting a square peg in a round hole.
I cannot believe this is going to "mess up" my friendly dog.
I cannot believe that if I want my dog to ignore you, I need a working line for that to happen.

I brought up the EXTREME example of the man with the gun thinking it would get my point across that my dog is that friendly. Knowing he's that friendly, can you/anyone help me redirect this tendency of his to be so willing to please whoever the hell you are? I obviously made mistakes in training or I wouldn't be posting. I'm looking for a way to undo this to a degree...not to the degree that you all are thinking I want.

Why is this training of not taking the treat any different from training him to sit? Or bark? Or come? Or lie down?

I am getting PMs from multiple people telling they understand what I'm looking for and I'm being misconstrued and misunderstood in my thread .

I've burned more calories trying to get training ideas in this thread than I have in a year .

Michelle, or anyone whose answered me regarding PP training of any kind, I'm grateful for your attempt to help but I'm so very frustrated at this point. You all are so smart and so experienced but so missing the boat in what I'm looking for .

Can I train my dog to ignore you or not? Sorry for the caps but THAT IS ALL I WANT.