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including that it might also be beneficial to the entire HUMAN species if we let nature take it's course sometimes with the "weakest" individuals...

Or the stupidest. Ok, I'm done digressing!

Awesome post Amber! Saved me a bunch of time ! Are you called a freak often for that Darwin stuff?

Something I have to say is that more than just not vaccinating goes into procuring a healthy pup. I did not vaccinate that litter of 6 I had a while back, and they were fed 100% prey model raw. To the best of my knowledge, they remained unvaccinated for at least a few more months. The 4 I see regularly are 100% vaccine free, and all doing beautifully. You cannot expect to feed Iams and not vaccinate and still have a healthy dog. The immune system is a complicated thing, and it needs total cooperation to function properly, ie, no vaccines, and PROPER NUTRITION. I will never sell a vaccinated pup. If it gets sick and dies, so be it. At least that pup isn't going to be reproducing more weak dogs. We have real problems with weakness in breeds today-partly genetic and partly environmental. I will also not purchase a pup w/shots, and preferably, the sire and dam will be clean, too, and of course, raw fed. That's kind of why I'm preparing to breed for myself.

Natalya, back to your question about shipping: They have to be 8 weeks, I think, but they're rabies exempt, and usually rabies is the only legally-mandated one, so why couldn't you get a clean pup shipped? I think Cindy once posted that she ships unvaccinated dogs all the time; they probably need an exemption certificate, but on an 8wk old, how hard should that be to get?

Amber
Thank you for your well-researched views!I agree that the strongest dogs would be the survivors and that would be the best for the population. If I continue to vaccinate my puppies does that put me in the "ignoring natural selection for people/dogs" camp? Is that so bad?
I had a litter of 7 week old apparently healthy pups die from corona (necropsy results). It was very hard to tell those 6 people who had put deposits down on a pup that their pup was dead. I really don't relish the idea of going through that again. Those pups had not been vaccinated for anything. Before that incident I was in the minimal vaccine camp. So now with the new views I am finding I want to collect as much information as I can to determine what is best for my dogs. I would be more inclined to trust real-world experiences of breeders than possibly biased scientific papers.
I do agree that adult dogs do not need yearly boosters. Case in point: When do most people get their annual polio boosters???

I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on you, Debbie. Many vets (even conservative) won't vaccinate for Corona because it is more of an expensive, pain in the butt type of an illness than a killer. I would have to say (even if I sound psychotically Darwinian) that if Corona killed all those pups...they maybe weren't too strong to begin with. Sorry about your puppies at any rate. At 7 weeks, they should've been ok w/Mom's antibodies. Was Mom vaccinated close to pregnancy?

Natalia
Pups do have to be 8 weeks before they can be shipped with a commercial carrier. Pups going into Canada have to be certified as having at least one Parvo shot. Rabies is required for every pup or dog, domestic or export, that is over 12 weeks old.

I'm one of those who is on the fence about vaccinations. In 1961 we got a gsd puppy. The neighbor across the street bred his female with our next door neighbor's male (literally a backyard breeder.) The breeder did not have any of the pups vaccinated. When we got Brenda, my dad took her to the vet and had her vaccinated. Shortly thereafter we learned that every other puppy from that litter died of distemper. Flash forward to 2007, and I was talking to a vet in her late 20's or early 30's who told me she has only seen one case of distemper in her career. I think vaccinations did a lot to reduce the incidence of this disease.

I was born before we had human vaccines for mumps and measles and chicken pox. I got all of those, and I don't remember them being any fun at all. I know people who got polio before there was a polio vaccine. Let's not even get into small pox. My children never had mumps or measles, and I'm very happy about that.

When I read about "vaccinosis", and research it, I am struck that there is very little scientific research on it, on either side. I have a nephew who is a vet, and when I ask him about the justification for the current vaccination protocols, he tells me there is very little research on it, and he has modified his vaccination schedules based on his own experience.

But ... I had Hans vaccinated. Now he has food and environmental allergies. Are they the results of the vaccinations? I don't know. His parents were both vaccinated, and neither of them have any allergies. Hans is getting allergy shots now, and they are really helping. After he goes through his course of treatment, I'm going to have him tested again, I have been told that there is a chance that once the environmental allergies are taken care of, the food allergies may disappear.

In my opinion, the jury is still out on animal vaccination procedures.

 Quote: Rich Pallechio

I have a nephew who is a vet, and when I ask him about the justification for the current vaccination protocols, he tells me there is very little research on it, and he has modified his vaccination schedules based on his own experience.

I hate to say it, but look at who is teaching the vets what they know about vaccines. There is not one iota of unbiased material taught in vet school regarding either vaccines or food.

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But ... I had Hans vaccinated. Now he has food and environmental allergies. Are they the results of the vaccinations? I don't know. His parents were both vaccinated, and neither of them have any allergies. Hans is getting allergy shots now, and they are really helping.

Allergies are auto-immune problems. They have a huge correllation w/vaccines, IMO. Vaccines, or their adjuvants, can cause many chronic auto-immune problems. Just think of the diseases that are prevalent today that were unheard of in dogs 20-30 years ago...Addison's? Cushing's? IBS/D? I cannot ignore the timeline of the introduction of certain popular vaccines and the emergence of these diseases. Also, second, third, etc., generation vaccinated dogs are just going to get worse in terms of allergies. Studies are finding that even environmental effects can be passed from many generations back. This is why I will not buy a dog from vaccinated parents.

Jenni
Mom did not have any vaccines close to or during pregnancy. However....I did give all my adults a Rabies shot about two weeks before those pups died and several other pups in different litters were also somewhat sick. Now that I think I've just figured it out it is also making me very sick . They would almost certainly have been exposed to mom shedding the virus. I could get some of those surviving pups titered for rabies and see if my theory is correct.
I believe I have just taken one or two steps closer to the no vaccine camp.
And I do not use heroic efforts to save very young pups because I don't want to be producing weak individuals.

 Quote: jenni williams

Natalya, back to your question about shipping: They have to be 8 weeks, I think, but they're rabies exempt, and usually rabies is the only legally-mandated one, so why couldn't you get a clean pup shipped? I think Cindy once posted that she ships unvaccinated dogs all the time; they probably need an exemption certificate, but on an 8wk old, how hard should that be to get?

You make it sound so easy Jenni!

Having just gone through the process of attempting to get our ADULT dog cleared for travel overseas (and I am talking about international shipping with regards to a new puppy, just to clarify ), I think I'm just a little exhausted with the whole process and warry of various regulations surrounding "official" health certification for import/export (every country has their own particular regs and some pertain to health threats we've never even heard of here in the states).

On another board I recently heard an absolutely heartbreaking story about a woman trying to import her 2 dogs from Nairobi to S. Africa - after being given vaccinations that were MANDATORY for import, both dogs were dead within 12 hours. That's more of a horror story than the norm, I'm sure, and very particular to an area that I'm not really looking to ship from, but it's still a frustrating system to navigate. I'll see if I can learn a little more about getting vet's exemtions for internationally transporting really young puppies though - didn't mean to get off topic discussing adult dogs...

~Natalya

 Quote: Al Curbow

Amber, can you post a few links to the studies that showed a corallation between a weak immune system and contacting the parvo virus? I'd be very interested in reading it.
AL

There's a strong correlation between a weak immune system and contracting/dying from MANY different diseases, viruses or infections than would an individual with a strong immune system. I used Parvo as an example of an 'insert your vaccination-available disease' in my post. But I can try to locate something Parvo-specific.

Keep in mind though, that I wasn't saying that a dog with a strong immune system couldn't ever contract the Parvo (or any) virus. I was just saying that they would be more likely to survive it. Even those animals (and humans) with seemingly bionic immune systems still get sick sometimes. But in general, they have milder symptoms and recover more quickly and are less likely to have a recurrence.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Awesome post Amber! Saved me a bunch of time ! Are you called a freak often for that Darwin stuff?

I'm probably called a freak for lots of reasons! And Darwin's theory aside, I've seen it happen in lab mice/rats (those with a short life span) and it's been documented in TONS of studies of wild populations of other species. Now of course, a correlation does NOT mean a cause and a theory is just a theory...but it's a pretty ubiqutious phenomenon across species and throughout history that nature has a way of dealing with improving or eliminating certain traits (or species).

 Quote: Jenni Williams

You cannot expect to feed Iams and not vaccinate and still have a healthy dog. The immune system is a complicated thing, and it needs total cooperation to function properly, ie, no vaccines, and PROPER NUTRITION.

100%, absolutely. And also, it's important to remember that even a dog with a strong genetically provided immune system needs *some* exposure to the disease. Keeping a dog in isolation in antiseptic conditions won't help anything. (Kids that do not have siblings and never attended pre-school are MUCH more likely to be sick in kindergarten than kids with early exposure to cold bugs and such through older siblings and/or those who attended pre-school. Still a correlation, but interesting.)

Also, if you just drop a dog with a strong immune system into nothing but a high rabies/parvo/lepto (etc,etc) environment constantly, the dog will probably get sick. Good immune systems don't make anyone invincible!

Yuko's a good example of what I was talking about with her pup from Angelique, a breeder who does not vaccinate:

 Quote: Yuko Blum

By the way, Aja is still 100% vaccine-free and will remain that way. I've taken her to as many places as I can think of since she was a baby (including around many other dogs) and she's as healthy as can be now at 5 months.

Debbie: even though my puppy has never been vaccinated, I can guarantee you that when I get a titer test done on her when she's a little older, it will show that she has developed antibodies against parvo, distemper, kennel cough etc just via normal every day exposure. Puppies will develop their immunity just fine if you let them grow up healthy
I think that vaccines interfere with the process more than anything, not to mention all the potential health damage associated with them... just my opinion of course - I don't vaccinate my dogs at all

 Quote: Debbie Bruce

I had a litter of 7 week old apparently healthy pups die from corona (necropsy results). It was very hard to tell those 6 people who had put deposits down on a pup that their pup was dead. I really don't relish the idea of going through that again.

I don't blame you, that must have been hard. But I agree with Jenni---if you lost the whole litter, maybe something else was going on with them. Did you breed those two dogs again or before with no problems? Were they pups that came from vaccinated parents, or unvaccinated?

 Quote: Debbie Bruce

Before that incident I was in the minimal vaccine camp.

Was this your only attempt at no-vaccination breeding? The reason I ask is because (harking back to my original post) if you have pups from generations of vaccinated animals in the pedigree (who theoretically might not have weak immune systems masked by vaccination protection) then those pups might not have had a genetic good start with the no vaccination. I'm NOT saying that's what happended with you...I'm just curious in the interest of my own education on the subject.

 Quote: Debbie Bruce

I would be more inclined to trust real-world experiences of breeders than possibly biased scientific papers.

Good! You should!!! If there's one thing that I learned in college, it was that studies can be horribly biased and statistics can be deceptive...they can be a sneaky way to lie and/or further an agenda. That's why I'm not basing anything I say soley on scientific papers or theories. I have talked to breeders who vaccinate and who don't. AND, Ed and Cindy's opinion on the no-vac thing is HUGE, IMO. I doubt I could find anyone with that amount of collective experience breeding unvaccinated pups.

I will NEVER say that there's no way I'm wrong. It's happened too many times!

EDITED TO ADD: Much of what I said is now redundant and many of my questions have been answered. Lots of people posted while I was typing. I have GOT to stop being so wordy!