Quote: michael west

thread hijack

What exactly is BH? (sorry not a sports guy)

/thread hijack

"The BH is a degree for traffic-safe companion dogs that tests the dog's temperament in and around people. It includes basic formal obedience - heeling on and off leash, sits, downs and recalls - as well as practical tests of the dog’s character in everyday situations. These include reaction to normal situations involving crowds of people, strange noises, joggers, cars and other dogs. Before being allowed to enter for a Schutzhund I title, the dog must first have successsfully completed the BH." from
http://www.gsdca-wda.org/schutzhund.htm

The Begleithund test.
You need to pass this test ( written and on field ) before advancing onto a SchH title.
It's a combination of a temperament test and "traffic steady" test with obedience between an AKC CD and CDX.


You can read the rules as a PDF at:
http://www.dvgamerica.org/rules.html

Well now i guess i could have took the 10 seconds and looked it up my self

 Quote:

Jennifer, your post to Lisa may be true, but when you talk about OB "looking" better, I have to bring up the point that you're talking about competition. I couldn't care less about how my dog "looks" when doing OB. As long as he does it reliably, I don't care about flash or eye contact; I don't do sports or any other competition, and my OB work is all about control and safety-not "flash." Keep in mind that a dog who only works for a paycheck may or may not be 100% solid, depending on training. That "flash" just isn't important to everyone equally, so bear that in mind when reviewing Lisa's post.

Totally agree. I was talking about a certain flash that I like to see when doing ob routines. I mentioned it only because Lisa is a trainer had mentioned about getting involved with things such as dog sports....as well as PPD and PSD training.

I have to do an ob routine for my search group yearly exams, as well as having an obedient dog that can be around heavy and dangerous equipment, 1000 of people per day etc... I could be satisfied with the routine the way it is, but because I love dog training and am always learning new things we are always trying to improve. Fun/rewarding ob training is good bonding time for me and my dog and reinforces exactly what is expected the million times I ask him to do things and have no intention of luring, bribing, rewarding or even praising him for obaying.


I agree totally that a dog that will respond only to a paycheck is undesirable.

 Quote:

Not replying to any one person, but in general: I see Lisa's point and employ it to a certain degree with my dogs. However, it depends on the dog. I have one who works great for me w/out any reward, other than my kindness and respect. I have one who cannot for the life of her remember what "sit" means unless I make a big show out of her accomplishment by lavishing her with praise and treats. I have one who needs a harsh correction and will do what he wants to do, regardless of the toy or treat or punishment on the table. You can't be so steadfast in one training technique that you miss out on the BEST OB you can get from a certain dog. Use whatever works best, but don't underestimate the power of a good working relationship when talking about OB w/no reward. Remember that some dogs WANT to work for the handler b/c they are deeply bonded to them and doing things makes them happy. It doesn't always mean heavy compulsion, like many folks think of when someone says they don't reward for OB.

Maybe I did a lousy job in my post but you have said exactly what I was trying to say. The best Ob you can get from a dog will involve various methods, depending on the dog and depending on the issue. I do not bring treats or a ball on my various walks with my dog, or to work or even reward my dog with praise everytime I ask him to obay and he still obays me! He knows what is expected and is generally happy to comply (although if he had his way he would really love to be a squirrel/cat killer!)

Cheers,

As a matter of fact, yes, I do expect someone elses dog to work for me, for verbal & physical praise. Because he respects me, not because I have a piece of chopped up hotdog along with my clicker.My leash correction means stop what you are doing and pay attention to me. I am open minded and have used other types of training. It depends on the dog's personality and the owners personality. All my dogs work for ME,most dogs, not all, want to please you. I have used food as rewards in the past for some clients dogs. I am just saying treat training is not as reliable as leash & collar. I used to treat/clicker train and all the dogs did was whine & beg for food. If I didn't have a treat, i was screwed!Intermittitly take away their treat, youv'e taken away the reward. My praise is always there no matter where I am. My dogs will work for me because they know I am the one in charge.

 Quote: lisa harrison

As a matter of fact, yes, I do expect someone elses dog to work for me, for verbal & physical praise. Because he respects me, not because I have a piece of chopped up hotdog along with my clicker.My leash correction means stop what you are doing and pay attention to me. I am open minded and have used other types of training. It depends on the dog's personality and the owners personality. All my dogs work for ME,most dogs, not all, want to please you. I have used food as rewards in the past for some clients dogs. I am just saying treat training is not as reliable as leash & collar. I used to treat/clicker train and all the dogs did was whine & beg for food. If I didn't have a treat, i was screwed!Intermittitly take away their treat, youv'e taken away the reward. My praise is always there no matter where I am. My dogs will work for me because they know I am the one in charge.

Really dont want this to sound like we are ganging up on you but i cant honestly agree with you here.

Yes your clients dog will listen to you for two different reasons. Not wanting to be corrected and to get payed. Just becouase a dog love to play around and will work for praise doesn't mean respect. I am working with a handler now that has been with his dog two years, he does everything he is told and loves his handler but the MWD still doesn't respect his handler.

As far as me useing treats. I use them on a reward basis not to bribe or (crap i forgot what the terminology for the other one was) if he doesn't do what he is told he gets a correction simple as that. but treats are there for rewards and re-enforcement.

 Quote: lisa harrison

I am just saying treat training is not as reliable as leash & collar. .... If I didn't have a treat, i was screwed!

Using food when teaching a command, and leash corrections, aren't mutually exclusive.

If you're "screwed" when you don't have a treat, then I suspect you've left out the proofing stage. Briefly, after the dog thoroughly understands a command, you move on a random reinforcement schedule and secondary motivators.

I definitely do not carry food around when I take my dogs out. And I'm not "screwed" because of it.

http://www.leerburg.com/theoryofmotivation.htm

http://leerburg.com/draft.htm

Editing to say that Michael's post slipped in while I was typing, and I want to second his comment that we are not ganging up on you (or on anyone).

Mike,

Ganging up is an understatement. I give one opinion or make a comment it turns into a 5 page thread. I am inexperienced in PP & bitework, I have done very little. I admit to this. You have to start somewhere to learn. That is why I joined this forum, for information, guidance, networking and your experiences. Not to defend myself on every comment or statement I make. How many people are actually professional pet or K9 handlers making a living and how many are sports enthusiasts? There will always be debates among dog trainers and the tools that they choose to use. Hey, whatever works for that particular dog. Of course the dog doesn't want to be corrected. That is why eventually you will need no corrections at all. The dog needs to understand what you want and he does it. If there is no consequence (the correction)why bother doing the command. I doubt the puppy likes his mother biting the scruff of his neck, but she does it to show him what she wants. Once he knows, he usually obeys.Your treat is like my praise.I misunderstood, I did not realize you did actually give a correction, i just thought you told the dog to do the command and when he finally did it...on the 3rd or 4th time, he got the treat.
Why do you say the dog doesn't respect his handler?

 Quote: lisa harrison

As a matter of fact, yes, I do expect someone elses dog to work for me, for verbal & physical praise.

Why in the world would a full temperament dog work for a total stranger that they have no reason to respect?
We've had this discussion before and many serious trainers would never think that their dog would work for a stranger - if you took my dog via the leash and tried to get him to do something, you'd be badly bitten. And that goes for a lot of the upper level dogs that we see at the various seminars that we all attend.

I've got to ask this, did ya'll work any serious dogs at the school that you attended?

Please note that Michele has a dog out of *serious* lines and that she's doing training to lead to titling in SchH, this isn't pet dogs that we're talking about here.

Edit to say:
lisa, please don't think that we're ganging up here on you ( even if it appears that way ) but this is a serious board and if you post stuff you have to be able to back it up - just the way that we are.
On the plus side, there are more serious professional trainers that pop into the board than anywhere else.

 Quote: Will Rambeau

 Quote: lisa harrison

As a matter of fact, yes, I do expect someone elses dog to work for me, for verbal & physical praise.

Why in the world would a full temperament dog work for a total stranger that they have no reason to respect?
We've had this discussion before and many serious trainers would never think that their dog would work for a stranger - if you took my dog via the leash and tried to get him to do something, you'd be badly bitten. And that goes for a lot of the upper level dogs that we see at the various seminars that we all attend.

I've got to ask this, did ya'll work any serious dogs at the school that you attended?

Please note that Michele has a dog out of *serious* lines and that she's doing training to lead to titling in SchH, this isn't pet dogs that we're talking about here.

Naturally, Mr.Rambeau beats me to my opinion! I wouldn't even THINK of grabbing someone else's dog's leash and expecting anything but bodily harm. NO ONE else tells my dog what to do. Not to undermine your training ability, Lisa, but my gut is that you're talking PET dogs. Most pets will go along with your whims rather than get popped with a leash. Many working dogs (worth a damn) will come right up that leash and pop you in the face for yanking them around, since they do not even KNOW you, let alone respect you. Please be very careful applying this school of thought to working dogs.