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Robbin, if you can have people in the house and the dog is good around the kids it sounds like a good dog for your lifestyle.

Absolutely.

This is what it all comes down to really. If the dog doesn't fit your lifestyle, then it's not the right dog for you. A PPD is not for everyone, but rather than accepting this, people depend on a dog to be a PPD that may not be as "civil" as they like to believe. They are giving the dog a duty that the dog isn't 100% cut out for.

Nothing wrong with the dog, but you have to be realistic about the dogs capabilities. Too many trainers will say "oh yeah this dog will protect you" about nearly every dog that will bite a suit, its misleading to alot of people.

This is one reason why I always ask age appropriate questons. Like how old should a dog be when he starts showing serious aggressiveness or territorial protectiveness? Right now, Levi mostly ignores people. He will stand back and watch them but not really care much about them. So, I am thinking is this dog "aloof" or is he just not interested or threatened? I have to believe what my trainer tells me concerning my dog. We had a discussion yesterday on drive and he told me that it was high time I stopped worrying about my dog, that he was a good dog and was going to do very well with the work. Then I think about his "working showline" background and the things I hear on the board regarding "working, or civil dogs and showlines or I take a look at Sandy's dog (totaly fits the 'working' picture) and wonder does my dog have what it takes? Am I spending money for nothing? Now I have to think that a trainer that has spent a year under Ivan Balabanov knows whether or not a dog has it or not and according to him Levi is very young and immature but he says his bite work is great for such a young dog and to stop worrying about his capabilities. One thing I know for sure, going through the training and being with tbe dog has been and continues to be an awesome experience for me. IF he turns out to be a little less than what an 'expert' would consider an 'awesome protection dog I still feel that he is a great dog to learn on. If all I get out of the dog is the ability to command him to show some serious bravado and still have him good around my kids I guess I can live with it. Like it has been said, most perps wont come through a dog showing alot of attitude. I also like to think that as a breed the gsd was well known for his heroics before the breed was seperated into two different classes. Would he protect? Time will tell I guess. Still, by asking questions from you guys and being real w/myself I'd like to think that if issues do arise they can be worked/trained through. It's all the support and the honesty that I love about coming to this forum. One thing for sure, coming here has been an education! My next dog will probably be a different story, lol. Probably a pain in the butt for sure. For now, I will just love my boy! In the meantime, the issue of training to bite w/o command still concerns me, mostly from a liability issue more than anything else.

Robbin,
I know there are people here (respected people) that disagree with me on this issue, but here is my opinion. The whole idea that one is going to leave it up to the dog to decide what is a threat in a normal every day life is shear lunacy. Dogs just aren't equiped to make those types of fuzzy nuanced decisions that allow for our civilized society to work. Not only will you need a collar for your dog that says do not pet, you'll need a shirt or jacket to wear that says 'do not approach, do not talk to'. Instead of thinking about liablity, think about how'd you would feel if somebody at the corner was attacked because they tapped you on the shoulder to ask directions, or an old classmate happened to meet you on the street and reached out to hold your forearms to say how great it was to see you again. Liablity would be nothing to how you'd feel about scarring some innocent for life or worse. Ed has said many times many places, dogs see black and white, period. I'm sure your helper says the same thing, take it to heart, it isn't just words. If you feel the need for protection that can make the distinctions between threat/nonthreat than you should hire a body guard and play with the dog, instead of asking the dog to do the job of the body guard.
I don't think you'll find anybody on this forum that will suggest that your money is being wasted by the training, no matter how it turns out. As you said your self.
The journey has been it's own reward.
Randy

Randy,
"The whole idea that one is going to leave it up to the dog to decide what is a threat in a normal every day life is shear lunacy."

That's where obedience and the handler managing the dog is vital.

These dogs simply aren't for everyone.

Randy, I actually agree with you to a point. Most people do not need a PPD, and what they really want is not really a PPD. At least, not by the definition I provided earlier. In reality, any big dog could be a "PPD" to some degree. A dogs main job is as a deterrent, a snarl and a nice bark on command is sufficient for almost all problems an average person is likely to encounter. Most peoples handling skills, lifestyle and needs do not warrant a serious PPD. Even a dog that doesn't bite at all but stands there barking might occupy the bad guy long enough for you to run away and get help or grab your gun.

There is nothing wrong with training a more social dog in PPD work, because if the dog "has it", and the dog fits in your lifestyle, then you have yourself one really kickass dog. The problem is when the dog doesn't "have it" or people believe the dog "has it" when he doesn't, and start to depend on the dog more than they should, like my gated community analogy earlier.

As for the trainability of making a dog differentiate between someone tapping you on the shoulder or shaking your hand, look at some of the ringsports that train for this. The decoys go out of their way to try and make the dog bite, they shake the handlers hand, jump around and really annoy the dog without touching anyone and do everything imaginable to try and false start the dog. It requires alot of training and a competent handler.

It is interesting...everytime one makes a point I say "yea, that's right, I'm going to do this..

then someone else comes along and says something else and I say the same thing, lol.

Valid points ALL. Not an easy decision to come to. The learning curve is a big one on this but the decision making not so much.

Randy, you are right I would care much less about liabilities if a child or someone who really meant no harm came to death/serious damage because of my dog. No doubt that as this process proceeds I continue to get more and more serious about the future of having a dog trained in PPD. I always felt it serious before but it increases as time goes by. Thank heaven for this forum and the education that it provides. I can't say it enough. The things that I have learned from Ed's site and from all of you is worth a mint! Too bad we can't have an Ed channel on t.v., maybe more people would be educated about dogs and their real purposes.

Let me tell you why I made the decison to train a dog in protection. First of all, last year a friend of mine who lives behind me over a block was handing out halloween candy to kids when some kids rang the bell around 9pm. She figured they were just late and opened the door only to be pushed back inside her house by 4 masked teenage boys who proceeded to sexually assualt her while her baby girl watched screaming and crying in the same room. There was a neighborhood manhunt to be sure but they were never found. Staying home all day alone w/o kids/hubbie or neighbors I felt it my best option for safety. I do own a gun and know how to use it but unless I carry it on my hip all day, might not have the option to get to it fast enough. Not only am I outside alot but the distance between homes leaves no room for screams to be heard.

To be sure, I did alot of research on different breeds, types, of dogs. I felt gsds to be the best of what I was looking for. I didn't make the decision lightly to own a dog that I intended to train from a pup. I wanted a bond w/my family and friends so that he would not be a threat to his own pack or close friends. For this reason I chose a pup to rear up myself. I wanted a dog that could go jogging with me, once trained and I could actually listen to music w/o fear of someone sneaking up behind me. I wanted a dog that, once trained would protect his family. I did research the working/show lines and ended up purposely choosing a dog that was the "golden middle" this might seem a cop out to some I suppose but considering my lifestyle I chose the best I could in good conscience in consideration of my children. Let's not forget my lack of experience as a handler of PPD's. I have owned large breed dogs all my life but not of this caliber. I consider myself pretty smart in life (kinda on the dumb side in training ) but capable of learning. I hope to establish a great working bond w/Levi. I am closer to him than any other animal I have ever owned. I have trained him with more respect and love than any other dog (thanks mostly to the things I have learned from the forum and some stuff from Caesar Milan). I tell you this because I want you to know that the time I invest here at Leerburg, learning, asking stupid questions, etc. etc. is mostly for my dogs benefit. So that you will understand that I didn't take this decision lightly, nor do I take it lightly now. I might not be the brightest sometimes when it comes to certain things but I am capable of learning. We all started somewhere right?

I have been on Leerburg for over a year now. (dang, time flies) and have no intention of leaving anytime soon. I have made wonderful friends (Sandy,Carole) whose support and knowledge inspire me not to give up or to get discouraged by all the variables this training dishes out. I am no fly by night and most certainly do take this work serious. I guess I just wanted to say that outloud. Sorry for the rant...I guess I just wanted everyone to know where I was coming from.

Sheesh, where did all that come from??? I'm going to go do dishes...lol

Wow, theres alot of great post here. Many of you are better at getting your points across than I am.
When I first read Robbin's question I looked at his profile and the info in his original question. I made assumptions such as heres a family guy who is having a great time with his dog and wants to go as far with it as he can. I didnt read anything in his profile about him transporting diamonds in brief cases or anything like that. I came to the conclusion that this is all new to him and he probably doesnt need the type of dog that he described. I also knew that it was very unlikely he even owns that type of dog. But I also understand that he is an adult and can make what ever decision he wants with his trainer. Its not detrimental that even makes that decison at this time. He has a ways to go, developing the bite work, the body suit, the obedience. It will take a lot of commitment on his part to even get the dog to that point.By then I assume he will know alot more about it and will be able to decide/or know if has the dog for it or if he wants to train it that way.
But one thing is for certain. If the dog ever had an unprovoked bite that was a result of training the dog to bite some one that puts their hands on you, it could turn out ugly. Your looking at the dog being determined to be a dangeruose dog and he could be put in a situation where he could lose his dog. Just for example he could be ordered to get $100,000 worth of liability insurance on the dog, specifically on the dog. That is almost impossible. I say almost because it can be done. By those same people that insure tigers and bears.

 Quote: David Morris

Wow, theres alot of great post here.

There sure are! Lots of thoughtful responses to her post.

Mike and Al,
My post was addressing the original query about command vs. no command, not wheather or not a ppd is worth the effort or risk of owning one. Forgive me for not being clearer. As you, Mike, have so elegantly pointed out, the dogs that are really suited for that type of work are not 'family pets' and certainly not for everyone.
Since my last post though I've wanted to put an addendum on to reassure Robbin that however Levi works out it will be worth the effort. She is giving him the best education to confront, the best he is able, to deal with any issues that may threaten the pack. Now I don't want anybody to think that is a judgement on Levi's temperment, suitibility for the task or Robbin's training or dedication. It is something I would say to anyone entering bite work in general.
However, I will stand by my assertion, a 'password' for the dog in everyday civilian life is not only desirable but a necessity.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Boy alot happened between writting the last post and actually posting. Forgive me again all for doing an addition for clearification. I had to go out for the dogs' last exercise run/walk of the day and just posted and ran, so to speak.
Robbin, my intention was not to question your motives or needs for a ppd. That is for you to decide. I only wanted to weigh in on the issue of command/no command.
Another day I may be a lttle more on top of my game and be clearer, today though it doesn't seem to be coming out right, sorry. It's all with the best of intentions.

The journey makes it all worthwhile.
Randy