Hi Jennifer

How about timing with correction and or praise. When drak barks sometimes he us usually way at the other of the yard at the wall facing main street. When I start going to him by walking towards him or them as they are barking as soon as they see me sometimes, they start running towards me for attention and excitement and sometimes he looks and still barks. If I do call him from the garage he / they most of the time do listen and come to me to my command. Do I need to approach them in a surprise manner or so they can see me approach them to correct them or praise them?
Maggie

thanks to all of your ideas and replies it is really helping me and I will work on voice commands and praising first before going to anything more rough at this time. I will need to work on them more.

Hi Jennifer

I do not know if that comment about being a bit arguementive and defensive was for me, but if it it was I am sorry. You replied something to me and in your next paragraph you added another comment and not to who it was and I am assuming it was for me.

Before I try the ecollar or can, I will need to get my but in geer and try what you have suggested first before the can or e-collar. I did try what you said about the jumping. I went into the garage this morning and she was a bit excited and as I stood on the stairs and said holly sit, at first she did not, I went back inside for about a minute then went back out said sit nicely and calmy, she sat down and I patted her said good girl, then I let them both out. I need to work at it for quite a bit. She is still young I think that is maybe why she is a bit more jumpy and hyper like she is always excited. Luckly drak listens pretty good and is very calm. I can open the garage door,take out my car and he will just sit there until you tell him release. Unless he sees strangers walking by then he looks and gets that look of protection/who is coming.

Maggie

I would never think to accuse anyone here of being abusive to their dog. I know that everyone here has the same goal, we just have different ways of doing. If I told you that I can't think of a situation where I would use a prong collar on my own dog or that of a client I'd be lying.

That said the purpose of a high level correction on a prong is to cause pain. If pain is the necessary motivating factor to have a dog that will be able exist in a household with out being a danger or a nuisance then I might lean towards it. Most dogs do not need this though and I feel everyone here (just about) seems to lean towards prongs etc as a first try. Sure they'll work but if we're going with analogies, a blow torch will work to light a campfire but why not try a match first?

That's a terrible analogy! Using a blowtorch to light a fire would be AWESOME! Why WOULDN'T you do that?! Woah!!!

Hehe. I see what you're saying, Ben, and I think you'll find that everyone here agrees with you.

If you've watched Ed's videos, you know that part of his philosophy of corrections is the "Match first". He clearly says that it is the responsibility of the handler to start with the LOWEST possible correction and work your way up. He also states that for some dogs a verbal correction is sufficient.

That pretty much tells me that Ed only thinks you should use a prong if the dog doesn't respond to other forms of correction, and thinks you should use it to the lowest effective degree of force. I agree with that philosophy.

But realize that most of the dogs that people on this specific forum have tend to be pretty hard. They tend to be dogs that are working breeds and they tend to be from the hardest working bloodlines of those working breeds. A flat leather collar pop (OR purely positive training!) may work really well for 95% of dog owners, but the specific segment that occupy this board do not fall into that 95%.

THat's not to say that purely positive dog training won't work on their/our dogs, and I think we all genuinely try to be minimally aversive, but...it is what it is. I hope Bob doesn't come in here and totally debunk me.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

That said the purpose of a high level correction on a prong is to cause pain.

i have to agree with jennifer (marshall) and amber - pain is not the purpose of the prong. it requires my dogs pay attention, and is a physical reminder of that, but having used it on myself i fail to see how it could possibly be painful to either of my dogs (including my softer dog). (i found it to be a rather pleasant sensation, to be honest.)

to me it's an adversive b/c it physically tells the dog who is in charge - but it's not painful. like amber and jennifer, i make a distinction between discomfort/physical intercessions and pain. they don't necessarily go together.

i have no interest in hurting my dogs - but i want both of them, especially teagan, to see me as physically dominant. think of it this way - when i meet people who are physically dominant to me, i respect them - i'm not likely to challenge them - and that's what i'm looking for from my dogs. (i know, i have a terrible habit of applying what i learn about dogs to human behaviour)

sorry, this is getting off into a side topic. i've been watching this, b/c shockingly (ha), teagan can be a bit of a barker (it's a 'let me out of this crate!!!!!' thing w/her). so far, we're doing okay w/ignoring, but i'm filing a lot of this away for possible future reference.

edit: and if it helps w/all of us leaning towards prongs as a first try, b/f i got a prong collar, i tried for luc:
-martingale (choked himself)
-flat collar (choked himself)
-regular harness
-hiking harness
-gentle leader (even untightened, he....guess what....choked himself)
-no pull harness
i tried a prong, and from the first walk, we walked together, we didn't fight each other for control. the prong is one of the best things that ever happened to luc and me.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

I feel everyone here (just about) seems to lean towards prongs etc as a first try.

Wow. You do?

In my years on this board, and in my viewing of many of the Leerburg videos and reading the Leerburg articles, I have to say that I absolutely disagree. I'm not quarreling; I am simply saying that maybe this is based on a very small sampling. I don't know how else to explain saying that a board with so many handlers who use Ed's motivational Basic Ob video "leans towards prongs etc. as a first try." It's a great tool, but that statement surprised me.

 Quote: david eagle

That's a terrible analogy! Using a blowtorch to light a fire would be AWESOME! Why WOULDN'T you do that?! Woah!!!

Hehe. I see what you're saying, Ben, and I think you'll find that everyone here agrees with you.

If you've watched Ed's videos, you know that part of his philosophy of corrections is the "Match first". He clearly says that it is the responsibility of the handler to start with the LOWEST possible correction and work your way up. He also states that for some dogs a verbal correction is sufficient.

That pretty much tells me that Ed only thinks you should use a prong if the dog doesn't respond to other forms of correction, and thinks you should use it to the lowest effective degree of force. I agree with that philosophy.

But realize that most of the dogs that people on this specific forum have tend to be pretty hard. They tend to be dogs that are working breeds and they tend to be from the hardest working bloodlines of those working breeds. A flat leather collar pop (OR purely positive training!) may work really well for 95% of dog owners, but the specific segment that occupy this board do not fall into that 95%.

THat's not to say that purely positive dog training won't work on their/our dogs, and I think we all genuinely try to be minimally aversive, but...it is what it is. I hope Bob doesn't come in here and totally debunk me.

Well said David.

Ben, if you read what Ed has to say or watch his DVDs, he's always VERY clear about tailoring the correction to the hardness and level of drive of the dog.

If a voice correction alone is effective, then that's all you need. Ed explains what state the dog should be in once you correct it. It should still be willing to play and eat.
A dog willing to play with you and eat treats is not traumatized.

I also very rarely use corrections in obedience, but sometimes you NEED to make it very clear to the dog that what he's doing is unacceptable and will result in pain if he ever tries it again.

I offer the following examples: 1. dog tries to rip a child's face off in aggression, or 2. dog ignores your recall to go chasing after another animal across a busy street.

My dogs have both attempted these behaviours at one time or another, and I can assure you that I gave the strongest possible prong correction I could physically manage for case 1. (which caused my dog to scream - I think he got what he deserved, he's never attempted that again) and my current pup has also received a hard prong correction for case 2. (if she hadn't been on the end of a 20-ft line when that happened, she would've been mashed up by cars and would be dead by now).

My GSD pup is now 8 months old and has yet to receive a single correction in obedience training (not even a voice correction). The recall is an exception, but that's for her own safety.
She does everything purely motivationally for the chance to fight on the tug or to chase a ball.

When I train my 18-month-old male shepherd, he doesn't even wear a collar. He does everything for the ball and if he makes a mistake, I simply use my voice to let him know he's doing it wrong and he instantly adjusts.

Neither of them is working for me out of fear, that's nuts.

I would however challenge you to fix my male shepherd's child-aggression problems with a shake can or positive motivation.

He still hates kids, but knows that he will get his butt kicked by me if he so much as growls at them, so he behaves.

There are times when nothing short of a REAL correction is required.
If it's just a matter of training and taking the dog through a game, then yes, it's certainly possible to do it with motivation alone. Takes a little longer, but it's not that hard when the dogs know the game.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

That said the purpose of a high level correction on a prong is to cause pain. If pain is the necessary motivating factor to have a dog that will be able exist in a household with out being a danger or a nuisance then I might lean towards it. Most dogs do not need this though and I feel everyone here (just about) seems to lean towards prongs etc as a first try. Sure they'll work but if we're going with analogies, a blow torch will work to light a campfire but why not try a match first?

Saying that a high level correction with a prong is to cause pain I beg to differ. Have you ever used a prong on yourself Benjamin? I feel you are misjudging the prong as a tool.

I've pronged myself on the inside of my arm and totally reefed on it, like I would if I was lift a dog up making dimples in my skin. Basically to show people it is not the instrument of torture or pain that it looks like. Sure it is uncomfortable maybe even painful if I kept pulling on the prong with my arm in it. But that is so out there at the end of the correction spectrum I think you'd be hard pressed to ever correct a dog like what I did to my arm.

I like your analogy Benjamin over the blowtorch vs a match, the same goes for the use of the prong. It's all how you use it and fit it which has the bearing on how much gas you throw onto the fire. With the prong you don't need much gas to have a hot flame, as the owner of this website put it "it is like having power steering on your dog"

I think lots of people here started with a match (flat collar or choke) I did. Before being educated on the prong.

Why do people insist it has to be such a chore to train let alone make heel a driven dog with a flat collar, when you have a properly fitted prong on and it is like breathing air again after you have been underwater drowning. That is how much of a difference it was when I went to a prong I wish I knew about the prong years ago.

 Quote:

I wish I knew about the prong years ago

HEAR HEAR!!

Better late than never, but my now 11-year-old dog's quality of life as well as my own would've been much higher back in those early days if I'd known about prongs instead of messing around with those worthless choke chains or haltis - which only served to irritate us both.

Maggie -

I wasn't referring to you or your post, sorry for the misunderstanding you have in no way been argumentative or any of that

For a dog that is out of sight and then runs to you as soon as you are in sight, windows are wonderful things. So are doorways. If you feel that a verbal correction is all that is needed you can start there, go to the door that leads to the yard - if the dog is barking at the very moment you can say "No!" but don't yell. Wait for 5 seconds or so and then call the dogs to you.

If they ignore the "No!" and bark on the way back, do not correct them as they are following the here/come command. When they get to you, if you feel it necessary you can then take the time to clip on the long/trailing leads and do some obedience. Sit, Down, etc.

If they stop barking but do not come to you, mark the silence with "Quiet. Good quiet!" and calmly step out into their line of sight and call them again. You can bring in the squeeker here if you like, to help redirect their attention to you. If they still ignore you, calmly walk towards them, say their names, etc. until you have their attention, or you can put the leads on them. Remember not to get grabby with the collars so they don't start avoiding your hands. Take them back away from the distraction and do some OB and here is where you can work on marking for "quiet."

If a verbal correction is all that is needed, going to a window near them, and while they are barking (they have to be barking when you say it) say "No!" and if they do stop barking, "Good Quiet!" and wait about 5 seconds, then go out with them and call them to you, get a nice sit, and with treat/toy/something fantastic mark quiet, reward.

If they start barking again after your first "no", go the door that leads to the yard, stay at the door and another "No!" while they are barking. If they stop, do as above, if they don't stop, same as previously outlined above.

By saying No and waiting for them to stop barking before going out there, you help prevent a direct association with Bark-Attention. We don't want them to think that barking makes you suddenly appear. You need to wait about 5 seconds after a "Good quiet" before coming to the dogs line of sight or calling them to you, and ask for a sit when they do get to you. Avoid too much excitement and don't reward until they sit, we want quiet to be rewarded, and barking to lead to a correction and OB.

I'm sure others will have other suggestions, this is just what has worked for me with outside barkers.