What I really needed help with/ans to but didn't get from the dvd is--are there dogs who will comply only on leash; ones who are smart enough to know that, without a leash (or elec device)the owner can't do anything to stop him? Ones who never fully submit unless forced with a collar of some type?
Why ask this? Why can't I see that est myself as leader should stop this? That the dog will obey once he sees me as leader?
Because on his DVD, his dogs were sometimes worse than mine at having to be told over and over to stop & do, and I don't use markers. Mine learned very quickly to stop at doors and stairs, etc. He learned overnight to stay off furniture and wait until last to eat...on leash. I'm wondering if I need to use treats at all after the dvd, cuz mine is responding as well as his dogs without markers on a leash. It's off leash that he doesn't care what I do! He knows his real enemy is the leash/crate! He scratches and chews at it for that reason (leash).
Yes, there are dogs like that. They won't challenge while you have control over them but once that leash is off they become a completely different dog. It's a combination of intelligence, dominance and independence. I had a GSD like that. She was a real handful to train but she was also an exceptional dog later on.
Pack structure will
set you up as leader but you will still have to prove yourself a worthy leader every day of the dog's life. This involves regular OB work and a leader's attitude. This is one point I don't think Ed explains as clearly as he should in the "Pack Structure" DVD.
Leadership is a quality not just something you can read about or watch a DVD and put into action immediately. It's a learning experience that lasts your whole life. It's more of an attitude you pick up with years of working with dogs that doesn't come easily to the average pet owner.
This is why some dogs who are complete spazzes with their owner will be a model dog for an experienced trainer. Dogs recognize the qualities that make a good leader and will respond with disdain if you don't meet their criterion. I personally think confidence has a lot to do with it. If you are confident that the dog is not in control and is going to learn that will carry you a long way in training.
It(pack structure) also isn't a cure to all your problems. The dog won't stop all it's undesirable behaviors just because you have followed the DVD. Leadership is re-established every moment you are working with your dog. It's a long term process with no real end as long as you have that dog. The information in the DVD is there to help you establish a relationship with your dog that will allow you to succeed in training but it isn't a substitute.
Also, he must spend gobs of money on marker training treats every year. I don't think I could afford what he does. Treats
aren't cheap IMHO.
Ah, the wonders of wholesale. Since he sells them on this website I imagine Ed gets all his treats wholesale which is a LOT cheaper than you pay for the same thing.
I'm not trying to be nasty, honest. I appreciate what I've learned from the articles and podcasts and that is worth more to me then the DVD.
But I don't think Toby is all that bad, now that I've seen the dvd! I never saw any of his dogs off leash with no type of electric device to see if they responded better/as well to his commands or not!
That's where you start, with the dog on leash or restrained by some method. This way the dog can't ignore you and or get away if you loose control momentarily. Eventually you will get it off leash. Ed suggests using a remote collar at first if the dog is off leash. This acts as a backup "just in case".
You do however need to set up the transition from the training collar to the remote collar and to off leash properly. First is just getting the dog used to the device. You want to take it off and put it on a lot before stimming or correcting the dog. This way they don't get collar wise. Forget to do this and you will have a case like you mentioned above. A dog who knows you can't touch him without a training device. The smarter a dog is the harder it is to fool him so be careful during the conditioning phase of any training tool.
Also, it appeared to me that most of his animals live *outside* in kennels, or in a place inside away from the family living area! I only saw one scene in a kitchen and the dog was on a leash and doing marker training. I would have liked to view him working with a dog off leash in a family room with people walking around. I know this must take place; he mentions putting beds all over the house.
IMHO, If a dog is off leash and across the room and there is no threat of prong collar, I guess Mr. Frawley has to use an electric collar to get them to obey/respond, which tells me they aren't trained without some type of control in place. I'm
assuming/hope I'm wrong on that. I'm assuming that eventually all of his dogs move off all control devices and freely move around the house - except for the really hard cases. I would have liked to have seen end results in the house.
That's where he chose to start the training. At first you want a place without all those distractions. According to Ed however he doesn't allow dogs off leash and uncrated in the house until the dog is well along in it's training. I think he mentions the age at around 18-24 months and then only for a test. If the dog messes up then it's back to the crate and leash.
Different dogs will go through this faster than others. Molly is great off leash and uncrated. I can leaver her for an hour or so unattended without problems. I would imagine that with the drivey dogs Ed breeds and raises this might take a little longer than Molly did.
Toby is actually pretty far along in some areas already and I just need to keep going with what I've been doing this past week, apparently. ...and keep reading the articles/viewing the podcasts...and hope and pray he gets the point that he has to obey me off leash as well as on leash.
Sorry for the rambling. I just wanted to see training off leash, I guess. LOL.
Kim
It depends on the dog. Some learn quicker than others. Just remember that the pack structure is only the start. It sets you up for what comes later. It won't cure all your problems or even any of your problems. It's where you start from. After that comes the training for specific behaviors whether to establish proper behavior or extinguish bad behavior.
In other words the DVDs are a starting point only. Sorry.
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Re: pack trainer dvd question - please clarify
[Re: Kim Wibbing ]
#212452 - 10/15/2008 09:55 PM 
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