Quote: Melissa Thom

... What is the percentage of pits that enter shelters in your area compared to other dogs? What is the adoption rate? ...

1. By far the highest, and 2. by far the lowest. It's one of the saddest aspects of shelter work. I am ashamed of this.

 Quote: Melissa Thom

... this has veered way way off what the OP originally posted about. We should probably continue this in it's own thread if at all. ...

Yes.

First Melissa,
This is not off topic. The thread is about unattended and by extention untrained/poorly trained dogs. Your answer so far has been advocating for the banning of certain breeds. Okay, let's do that. Done, they're banned.
Do you think that'll take care of the problems you want addressed? The lack of responsible dog owners, the subculture of criminal activities surrounding dogs, the backyard mentally for an easy dollar. That percentage of our society is probably always going to be there. One can call them sociopaths, pyschopaths, or apply less flattering terms to them but they'll always be there. If it's not one breed for them it'll be another, so whats the next breed to be banned? Shall we just save some time and effort and ban every dog over 30 lbs? We could ban every dog over 10 lbs. Melissa and it still wouldn't take care of the issue. Except we wouldn't have any dogs in this country.
That portion of our society you bemoan is still going to be with us. We will still have to deal with them.
To give an example, how long do you think we've tried to get rid of cockfighting here in the United States? And how close do you think we've come to accomplishing that? I would quess about as close as we've come to getting rid of dog fighting matches. And in the part of the country I'm familar with there is a long time ban on keeping certain strains of birds without proving some other use. The fights go on.

You can not be for dogs and responsible ownership and at the same time advocating for or being ambivalent about breed specific bans. They're diameterically opposed positions.
The problems you're trying to address are far too complex for a simple minded let's ban pits or (shrug) who cares if they do ban them.

So now you propose that I should have a specific use for my dog other than a loving companion. And if I don't, one dog will be just as good as another. So we should now have use licenses in order to own a particular breed? Because otherwise one is just as good as another as a pet?
What totalitarian part of the Soviet Union did you come from Melissa?
Who knows but the owner what they see in a breed of dog that make it something special. Don't ask me. I couldn't answer for any but myself. And for many breeds I think they're a waste of space. However someone else likes them, cares for them and the relationship brings joy for all concerned. So who am I to judge?

Indeed Melissa, just who is to judge?
Randy

 Quote: randy allen

.... The lack of responsible dog owners, the subculture of criminal activities surrounding dogs, the backyard mentally for an easy dollar. That percentage of our society is probably always going to be there. .... We could ban every dog over 10 lbs. .... it still wouldn't take care of the issue. Except we wouldn't have any dogs in this country. ....

And there IMHO is the crux of the matter.

The breed (or "looks a little like the breed") that is big with that subculture would just change to another one if there were suddenly no more of the dog du jour.

It's probably best if the discussion is not aimed at individuals, because it's a real problem and I think maybe real people are honestly struggling with how to address it. Maybe responses can be aimed at ideas and not people.

I don't own any of the "looks like a pit" breeds, but it's not possible for me to remain neutral on BSL for the simple fact that once we decide one breed can be legislated out of existence, which one will be the next?

"first they came for the pitbulls, and I didn't speak up because I didn't own a pitbull; And then they came for the Rotweillers, And I didn't speak up because I didn't own a Rotweiller..."

First, I want to apologize to Connie. Please move this as you see fit; I didn't want to start a whole new thread to reply to this. I have tried to stay out of this one, but a few statements really upset me. I want to try to shed light on a different perspective without just slamming the person making the statements, because I truly believe they're ignorant statements, and not malicious.

Melissa, I have read enough of your posts to think you're a compassionate individual. Therefore, I don't understand some of the things you've said about the American Pit Bull Terrier. I reflected a lot before responding, and cooled off quite a bit.

 Quote:

Please don't misunderstand, I have for the most part very little interest in BSL, and am most days neutral on the matter.

Lucky you; would you care if someone wanted to eradicate Papillons? It's very dangerous thinking, and the apathy makes me very sad, honestly. Perhaps you haven't thought this through? I can't stand ____________ (insert breed). Someone else loves them, and besides that, they as individual animals deserve to be available to be loved by those that choose them. They do not deserve to be killed for nothing more than existing and looking like something that did something that people are afraid of.

 Quote: melissa thom

What does the average pet owner do with their dog that justifies why they own that particular type of dog?

Lives in America. Who decides what makes someone deserving enough to own the dog of their choice? Why do dogs need to die in the name of depriving someone of their liberties? I don't need to say it again; this is a problem of the human condition.

 Quote:

Then there is a significant social cost to this "breed".

You don't believe they deserve to be a breed? Or you don't believe they ARE a breed? I'm confused by your quotes, and also think this thinking is one of the biggest problems related to Pit Bulls. They are a breed. A proper, very old breed. I truly, wholeheartedly believe that many, if not most problems associated with these dogs is the fact that they are being bred to other dogs w/different temperament, resulting in overgrown dogs who look like Pits on steroids, and act nothing like a Pit with proper temperament for the breed. Great examples can be seen in the other thread about "bully sites." These are not Pit Bulls, but BSL isn't going to differentiate between Pit Bulls and these poor creatures. Simon, at less than 60lbs will be in as much danger as an "American Bully" whatever the hell that may be, or that giant blue 142lb monster. This is the danger zone; where do you draw the line in deciding what a Pit Bull is or is not? Read some cities' bans; they are terrifyingly vague. I have read "scissor bite" and "tapered tail" as well as "very short coat" as a guide to animal control officers.

Not to say there aren't problems w/aggression and full-blooded Pits, but I think if you look at statistics and FACTS, not media-induced hysteria, that you'll see that it's not as bad as it appears on the side of attacks by Pits, and it's ten times worse than it appears on the side of attacks ON Pits. They are often abused horribly, and most of them never fight back. They die alone, on the street, in the cold, or in shelters. We have miserably failed these dogs already.


Are you all aware that there has never once been a fatal attack by a SINGLE, HOUSEHOLD Pit Bull? What this means, to reiterate, is that never once has a HOUSEPET, on his own, killed a person. All attacks documented have been more than one dog, or strays, etc. Surprising? To me, this screams what the problem is louder than anything else. Packs of dogs are dangerous. Period. Breed is of little consequence.

 Quote:

How much does it cost society in general to deal with the costs of a dog that is quite likely the most euthanized animal next to short haired cats in America?

What's the point of feeding starving children in Ethiopia? They're likely to die anyway, right? Save your money! I cannot be tactful regarding this statement. I can't even dream of looking into Simon's eyes, or Mia's, or any of the countless Pit Bulls I've met and/or fostered and telling them that it's too "costly" to fight for their right to exist, since they'll probably be killed anyway.

That was a wonderful post, Jenni.

Jenni, total agree!
Melissa, this type of ignorance is what fuels BSL. Do you know most of the dog bites in America do not come from APBT's (the stats are low for bites compared to other breeds)? Do you know that APBT's rate higher in temperament tests than Border Collie’s? Do you also know that most "pit bull attacks" you see in the news are not even pit bull? I'm sure you’re a nice person but you are very ignorant on how much you "think" you know about the breed. I deal with people like you everyday. I just ignore them! I will take 6 of my APBT's (we own 17 of them) into petsmart and people gasp and grab the kids out of the way, it's kind of funny to see people act silly. My dogs are walking in heel not pulling and people are still scared. Then we run into someone's little yippy dog who tries to go after my dogs. I just put my dogs on a down stay and wait for the little yippy dog to walk by. Who should be banned now?

As far as why own the breed when there are others that can do the same job?!!?

I have never seen a golden, spaniel, or lab go pull 8,000lbs on a weight pull track and be able to other spots like agility, schutzhund, or obedience. If you find a spaniel that can do that I might have to change breeds!!

I have been in the breed for over 15 years and I find they are the perfect all around breed for me. I have even owned Border Collies but they tried to out think me too much. APBT's just do what ever I ask of them. They are not for everyone but don’t blame the dogs, blame irresponsible owners. If they banned Pits in the USA then they would just go get another breed. I wish you could ban stupid people! lol

You know what will happen if the ban pits all together? They will go after other breeds and GSD's are on that dangerous dog list too.

Our shelter here went no kill to a point. They temperament test the dogs and if they do not pass they are put down. I foster for them sometimes and guess what the shelter is full of? PITS!

 Quote: jenni williams

This is the danger zone; where do you draw the line in deciding what a Pit Bull is or is not? Read some cities' bans; they are terrifyingly vague. I have read "scissor bite" and "tapered tail" as well as "very short coat" as a guide to animal control officers.

Indeed. My well muscled red wheaten dog fits all of those descriptions, and if I didn't have the paperwork to prove his breed, he could easily be in danger from many of those misguided bans.

Careless, irresponsible, heartless, abusive, fearful, fearMONGERING, and generally ignorant PEOPLE are genuinely the problem here, not the dogs.

As always, well put Jenni.

~Natalya

 Quote: Melissa Thom

.
Please don't misunderstand, I have for the most part very little interest in BSL, and am most days neutral on the matter.

I have a question for you. Since you seem don't care much about BSL, wouldn't you care more if they are targeting one of your favorite breeds? Wouldn't you put alot of efforts to fight it off like other pit owners? If the bsl had passed and targeted one of your breeds, what are you going to do then? Don't you realize how much that law is going to force you to dump your beloved dog to the shelter?

I have seen owners moving out of the county because they are willing to dislocate so they can keep their dogs better than relinquish them at the shelter. It might mean they have to live 20 or 50 miles away from the town where they have jobs.

I would fight the BSL if it came to Tucson. I believe that we should punish the deeds, not punish the breed. I think our law needs a better job to enforce irresponsible owners not breeds. Like Alyssa pointed out that only more laws are trying to pass. In my opinio, they only mean less freedom for us to choose what kind of dog we want.

I don't have a pitbull, a rottweiler, a gsd, or any breeds being listed on the BSL list. I don't understand why you don't care much about BSL? Especially if you come here to post thread or make posts those who have questions, don't feel affected by BSL.

There are tons of owners who own different breeds that are on BSL list such as gsd, rotties, pits, dobies, kuvasz, huskies, and others? If those breeds are banned, how will that help the police dept who need dogs to find narcotics, search and rescue, cadaver dogs, and biting dogs? Yes, I know several police dept have use pits as a detection dog. I believe David Frost can vertify that.

If BSL passed then police officers can't use gsd, pits, malinois, and other common breeds to help them find criminals. I wouldn't be surprised if they have to use golden retriever, labs, and foo foo dogs to do the job for them.

 Quote: tracy collins

I don't own any of the "looks like a pit" breeds, but it's not possible for me to remain neutral on BSL for the simple fact that once we decide one breed can be legislated out of existence, which one will be the next?

"first they came for the pitbulls, and I didn't speak up because I didn't own a pitbull; And then they came for the Rotweillers, And I didn't speak up because I didn't own a Rotweiller..."

Yeah, look at what they are trying to do in Ontario.

http://caveat.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/23/2257176.html


OK it's satire. It's not real but can reality be too far behind? Labs are very popular dogs. The more popular a breed is the more there are of them and the statistics will show that breed as having more "bites" than an unpopular breed. Also some BSL has mentioned labs as candidates for banning and other legislation is so vague a lab does qualify as a banned breed if you interpret the ordnance liberally. I even saw one proposal to ban on the basis of weight and that wasn't satire. Luckily it didn't pass but one of the proponents of the bill made the statement, "If it's bigger than a beagle it's illegal". What happens if that stance becomes popular?

As for the unsavory types who have brought all this on with irresponsible dog ownership, they can always find a new breed. Some might be better than others for what they want but you can train almost any dog to protect your drug stash or fight in a ring.

We are supposed to live in a free country but slowly apathy and this assumption that a few bad apples ruins it for everyone is slowly chipping away at that freedom. I for one believe that the days of, "Since whoever did it won't accept responsibility for (insert mischief here) then nobody is going out for recess", ended in kindergarten.

We are adults (or supposed to be). The people responsible for ruining the APBT breed need to be made responsible but not everyone else. Dangerous dogs need to be gotten off the street but limit that to truly dangerous dogs not every dog who fits a physical description.