Joy--

Agree with you about play-acting for an Alzheimer's patient.

I don't do SAR but was recently invited to have my bitch tested for a team that works out of the Wisconsin northwoods. The director told me that many of their deployments involve Alzheimer's patients that either wander away from campgrounds or nursing care facilities.

Pete

Whenever my teammates lay a track straight through blackberry thickets, mud bogs, or straight uphill, etc., we call it an "Alzheimer's track" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . People with Alzheimer's are very common "subjects" around here, too. One old guy we found wasn't an Alzheimer's patient, but he was disoriented. He wasn't combative at all, but was very glad to see us, and sorry to have put us to all that trouble! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I've play acted for their dogs, but we haven't done much of that with mine yet. It might be interesting to see how he reacts to someone behaving differently than he's accustomed to.

There is a big difference between a dog trying to protect you and actually being able to protect you. You will see and hear stories of dogs(many times non-traditional protection breeds) confronting an attacker and trying to protect there owner. I read a story about a Golden Retriever....yes a Golden Retriever, who jumped between his owner and 3 armed attackers. This caused enough of a distraction for the owner to get away. The dog took a bullet and lived but the attackers fled. Now does this make this dog a "protection" dog? Of course not. But it was all the owner needed in that situation to remain alive. The dog tried to protect his owner but if he really had to fight he would have been in BIG trouble. In the case of L.Swanston's dog, I agree with Pete when he said that the dog did his job in that situation. 9 times out of ten a show like this will urge a "evil doer"(a little GW humor) to flee. They normally don't want the hassle so they move to an easier target.

OK, just for the record, I never confused his territorial posturing with actual protection. I've been haunting this board long enough to know better than that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
What I'm really wondering, though, is whether an unidentified person coming into the house is a legitimate threat? I mean, *I* would certainly feel threatened by that! Or is the dog supposed to just watch a stranger walk right in my front door with no suspicion at all? If, at 3am, he hears noises outside, the dog with strong nerves will calmly go and check it out to determine if it is a threat, while the weak nerved dog will charge out, barking, hackles raised, automatically assuming that it's a threat, and try to scare it away? I'm trying to wrap my mind around this, but it seems as if there are a lot of contradictions....or maybe it's just me.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My last dog, a mixed breed (the Shep/Lab X) would always greet visitors to our home by approaching them confidently and sniffing them, then he'd figure they were OK and go lie down somewhere where he could see what was going on. If there was a knock on the door, he would alarm bark, but I can't recall that he ever raised his hackles. Once, he started barking emphatically in the middle of the night, which he was not prone to doing. I got up to look and see what it was, didn't see anything. But the next morning, when I got up and went outside, I saw that someone had been in the process of stripping the chrome off my car, and had stopped partway through the job. Another time, I was sitting watching TV in the living room, my dog outside in his run next to the house. Dog goes ballistic, I get up and look out the door. There, in the grass, a fresh set of footprints going from underneath my window (and about 3 feet from the dog's run; must have scared the you know what out of the creep <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) and out to the street. The only time I saw him bark at a neutral person (once he was mature; at about six months of age he had a thing about old ladies with walkers, but he did grow out of that) was the quadreplegic guy that would go past our house in his electric wheelchair. My dog would always bark at him. One day, the guy stopped and asked if he could meet my dog. I let my dog out, he ran right up to the guy, sniffed him pretty good, and that was that. From that day on, he still barked at the guy, but the pitch had a different quality to it, almost like a greeting rather than an alarm. That could have been me thinking that, though. Another time, I was changing my baby's diaper in the park. I had let go of the dog's leash, but had him right there next to me. A big off leash Dobe came over, so my dog ran up to greet and sniff, and they ran around a little, just a few feet away. Then, this dog heads straight for the baby, most likely just to check her out. But my dog quickly intercepted him, snarling and steering him the other way. I was quite amazed. That was protection, no doubt in my mind. I'm thinking that this dog had pretty good nerves, because he was confident in most situations, and didn't automatically think anyone coming to our house was a threat. He reserved judgement until after he had sniffed them. BUT, he did bark at the mailman! I thought all dogs did that! I'm rambling now. Still confused, but hoping someone will patiently explain without ridiculing me for my ignorance. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Joy, I did read your article! I'm still confused!

Alright lets see who I can irritate now......

There are several things to take into consideration. It is impossible to really evaluate "nerves" over the internet. In some cases you can get a better idea than others, but in this case there are some "mixed" signals.

There are dogs, and breeds that are noiser, and sharper than others. They can still have doog nerves. This is more typical in the "Defensive breeds". These are dogs that may or may not hackle up when they hit the door. If they do it isn't fear, it is they are pissed off and want to get to who/whatever is on the other side of that door.

I have seen several Labs that can do some decent protection work. As a breed they won't be as consistantly good as dogs bred for that task. Some individual dogs will bite for serious, and will defend when they have too. Some of those dogs don't really want to train for serious. There is an assist Lab here that is funny to watch work in training. After she is called off she licks the agitators face prior to returning to her handler. She doesn't look that serious in training. She has made bites defending her handler. Would she be my first choice for a protector.....no. Does she meet the needs of her owner....yes she does.

The best thing that you need to do when you are evaluating a dog is to go with your gut feeling about the dog and situation. If you think the dog would bite, there is a good chance it would. If you feel like it is all bluff you are probably right. It is easier if you have more experience, but you can get a fairly decent feel for it based on your gut.

No iratation here Rich!

Having slept on it, waking up this morning I feel as if a light bulb has suddenly come on. I think it's getting a lot clearer to me now. The only question that I have now is, and maybe this shows that I don't really understand as much as I think I do, where does normal canine territorial behavior end, and weak nerves begin? Dogs are territorial animals by their very nature. I've always figured that all dogs bark when strangers or unknown elements approach their territory (actually their human's territory, for all intents and purposes). When does it go from being a normal response, to weak nerves? When the hackles go up? Is it the degree of the reaction?

Other than that, I think I'm understanding the whole nerve thing. My dog has moderately weak nerves, closer to the middle of the spectrum. He is far from a "nervebag", but probably gets a lot of his confidence in working situations from being with me, and from performing the work. Fortunately, he has great working ability, and I've put too much training on him to just stop now. But, when I get my next dog, this is defintely something I will check for.

I think that one of the things about choosing a SAR dog is that so many people focus on prey drive, but don't pay as much attention to nerves and thresholds as they should, perhaps. I've seen some great dogs who can do great work, but you can't send them with another handler, or get them within 6 feet of other dogs, or go near a helicopter. I've always been very proud of how my boy handles all of these things so well, that I guess I didn't see how his territorial behavior at home could be a problem in the field. I mean, he's so focused that he doesn't even pay attention to horses and off leash dogs that come right through our training areas. Live and learn, I guess! I've really learned so much from this forum. Thanks, everyone.

I've got it! .....I think. Let's see if I can explain this.

So, a dog doesn't have to be in defense to alarm/alert bark. If a dog goes into defense in the presence of a neutral stranger, then that is weak nerves. A dog with good nerves can alarm bark if a stranger approaches the house, but does not go into defense unless the stranger behaves in a threatening manner....correct? So, a bad guy could walk into my house but as long has he behaves in a friendly or neutral manner, my dog should not go into defense if he has good nerves?

That makes me wonder why in the world I would want that....I'd rather have my dog go into defense the moment a stranger walks in the door and scare him away, rather than wait until he is beating me senseless before doing anything. But then, I suppose if I were protection training, I'd want a dog with good nerves who knows how to fight. So, for MY purposes, my dog is doing his job......but he is not a good candidate for protection training.

Am I on the right track?

 Quote:

So, a bad guy could walk into my house but as long has he behaves in a friendly or neutral manner, my dog should not go into defense if he has good nerves?

Well, I don't think I's want that!
If that's so, then give me a "nervebag" that suspects all strangers until they are introduced/accepted by the boss...

On the other hand, wouldn't a "bad guy" coming into your house, unless he is truly psychotic, likely give off little unconscious signals of his "badness" to the dog: posture, scent, movement...? Can't hide that from a dog. I would think then it's up to the animal as to how it reacts to those signals.

LSwanston, My GSD will take the fight to you if provoked, All the experts will say he is real sharp, Yes he is, I trained him to be that way. Is this how he was supposed to be trained. Maybe not. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes:

Is he a Competition K-9, "HELL NO"
Is he a 100% PP K-9, "HELL NO"

Will he bite on command and out, "Yes for sure"

Is his OB good, "HELL NO, IT'S VERY GOOD"

He alerts with one bark only, this took a little work to get proofed.

Does he retreat when threatened, I don't want to be on the recieving end of his response. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Will he chase you if you flee, only under command.

Guess what I'm saying that we all have different needs for our dogs, It sounds that you Lab will do what you are requireing of it.

Now the Akita she never hardly ever barks, when she does you need to check. This is just her natural instinct to protect here domain.

Be hppy with your dog and don't let all these Sport and Service dogs make you second guess a dog that's being faithful best way he can!!!

Damn, I got long winded. Sorry for the long post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />