Quote: Virginia Wyeth

Btw folks, don't forget, she killed a dog. Drastic measures were necessary. Perhaps I didn't take the right ones -- time will tell -- but I knew I had to do something serious.

A good reminder.

But I am glad that Steve joined the thread. My gut reaction to the trainer was not positive, and I was hoping to hear from others who I knew had reliable opinions.

Virgina,
Sorry if you didn't think my effort equal to your question. 'What can I do now'.
I actually put a bit of thought into my reply for you. And rather felt it summed up quite nicely what you need to do. Start working the dog yourself.
Why would it surprise anyone that a dog trained by someone else wouldn't obey a second or third party? That is unless said parties put the effort into working with the dog. And particularly if the dog is as you say, a hard dog.
For instance, my oldest GSD attends to me very well. However my other half sometimes gets to her wits end trying to get the dog to mind her. Shrug, she doesn't work with Cassie, and every time it comes up I mention that fact.
Soooooo Virginia, start working with the dog.

As to what you want as a finished dog. From here it's impossible to say if the dog you have is a good prospect. But I can say the dog is young and is just old enough, one might say he is a green dog. He is at two years old, barely more then a pup. Expect many more hours of training to come.
I'd start by walking the perimeter of your property with the dog morning noon and night with the dog (on lead if necessary) when you take him out to do his business. Take as long as it takes for him sniff, mark, deficate, etc. Go at his pace.

I had assumed, wrongly it seems, that an 8 hour down was a typo. I don't care who the trainer was, an 8 or 12 hour platz is the most inane thing I've ever heard.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Virginia,

I have a few random thoughts, tho they may not be of much value to you

I totally agree that a challenging dog provides the greatest opportunity for learning, when it comes to training and handling. I also think that they can often end up being the most interesting dogs to own, if one is able to meet their specific challenges.

I thought I was reading a typo when you mentioned putting your dog on a 8 hour down. Then, that this trainer uses a 12 hour down as the very first thing, well, I can't even imagine that. You have to wonder how this 12 hour down is even enforced.

Like Connie, I don't know if this is the dog to be able to do the job you envision, in the way you imagine it. I think you would have much better chances of even creating that ideal by raising the dog from a pup. The livestock guarding dogs, for example, are raised with their flocks from puppyhood. This leads to a strong identification with the flock.

I respect your taking on rescue dogs and doing your own rehab. But, the ideal you have in mind seems like a very difficult thing to achieve when you are starting from a place of inherited baggage.

If you are going to be able to get from here to there, there would seem to me to be so many steps in between that involve a lot of work with this dog. For one thing, this dog needs a lot of exercise and mental work. She is young and full of herself. Being a GSD, she won't even be fully emotionally mature until she's around 4. To expect her to remian on your property, unsupervised, perhaps bored seems to me to be asking more than she is capable of doing, at least, at this time.

Another thing that surpised me in your posts was that you put her on that long down, then when she broke it, she was able to leave your property. I would think that it would be wise to have a long line on this dog so that were she to break this down, you would be able to prevent the unwanted behavior of leaving as she did. Every time you allow her to leave the property, you are reinforcing this behavior.

Is an Ecollar the way to go? I don't know. It's a tool. I am certainly no Ecollar expert, but when I use one, I like to make sure the dog understands what I am asking of it before I then use the Ecollar to enforce the behavior.

I would agree with Connie's suggestion to get the DVD and watch it before investing in the Ecollar, and see what you think. And, I agree with Connie and Steve that you need a different trainer.

I really don't mean to be negative, but the more I think about it, the less realistic I think your ideal for this dog is.

leih

 Quote: randy allen

Virgina,
Sorry if you didn't think my effort equal to your question. 'What can I do now'.
I actually put a bit of thought into my reply for you. And rather felt it summed up quite nicely what you need to do.

Again, I apologize for my inappropriately vehement response.

 Quote: randy allen

Start working the dog yourself.
Why would it surprise anyone that a dog trained by someone else wouldn't obey a second or third party? That is unless said parties put the effort into working with the dog. And particularly if the dog is as you say, a hard dog.
For instance, my oldest GSD attends to me very well. However my other half sometimes gets to her wits end trying to get the dog to mind her. Shrug, she doesn't work with Cassie, and every time it comes up I mention that fact.
Soooooo Virginia, start working with the dog.

I am. Honestly, in the two days that she has been home I have worked with her a lot. She is obeying perfectly on-leash. She is doing reasonably well off-leash... just not off-leash with access to outside. It was my mistake to have put her in the garage with my husband so soon after her returning home. She did not have a long lead on at the time -- just her regular lead. Lesson learned.

 Quote: randy allen

As to what you want as a finished dog. From here it's impossible to say if the dog you have is a good prospect. But I can say the dog is young and is just old enough, one might say he is a green dog. He is at two years old, barely more then a pup. Expect many more hours of training to come.
I'd start by walking the perimeter of your property with the dog morning noon and night with the dog (on lead if necessary) when you take him out to do his business. Take as long as it takes for him sniff, mark, deficate, etc. Go at his pace.

Thanks. That is something I can start today.

 Quote: randy allen

I had assumed, wrongly it seems, that an 8 hour down was a typo. I don't care who the trainer was, an 8 or 12 hour platz is the most inane thing I've ever heard.

It seemed extreme to me, but he is the professional. I got a bad feeling in the back of my brain that certain things didn't sound right, but then my own abilities had led to Liesel killing another dog, so I didn't feel like I was the person to question the guy with the creds.

 Quote: leih merigian

Virginia,

I have a few random thoughts, tho they may not be of much value to you

I totally agree that a challenging dog provides the greatest opportunity for learning, when it comes to training and handling. I also think that they can often end up being the most interesting dogs to own, if one is able to meet their specific challenges.

Then I should learn tons from this dog.

 Quote: leih merigian

Like Connie, I don't know if this is the dog to be able to do the job you envision, in the way you imagine it. I think you would have much better chances of even creating that ideal by raising the dog from a pup. The livestock guarding dogs, for example, are raised with their flocks from puppyhood. This leads to a strong identification with the flock.

I can accept that. Truly I can. But I also believe Liesel can be trained to do a LOT. Although I am extremely frustrated with her, when I step back and see the growth since January, it's actually pretty amazing. I think because of what's at stake (other pets' lives), I feel a great deal of urgency about any lapses in obedience.

 Quote: leih merigian

I respect your taking on rescue dogs and doing your own rehab. But, the ideal you have in mind seems like a very difficult thing to achieve when you are starting from a place of inherited baggage.

Thanks. I actually had no plans to rescue/rehab a GSD. I went looking for a puppy with good lines from a reputable breeder -- all that stuff I had never done before. And then God put this dog square in front of me. It was obvious to me that, despite the fact that she was not an official rescue dog, she needed to be rescued from her situation.

 Quote: leih merigian

If you are going to be able to get from here to there, there would seem to me to be so many steps in between that involve a lot of work with this dog. For one thing, this dog needs a lot of exercise and mental work. She is young and full of herself. Being a GSD, she won't even be fully emotionally mature until she's around 4. To expect her to remian on your property, unsupervised, perhaps bored seems to me to be asking more than she is capable of doing, at least, at this time.

My springer (attachment for my bicycle) is on order. I am hoping that Liesel will be able to do long runs with me along side my bicycle. I do think that having her "work" is going to be key to her success, and I don't think that running figure eights in her run all day will accomplish any of that.

 Quote: leih merigian

Another thing that surpised me in your posts was that you put her on that long down, then when she broke it, she was able to leave your property. I would think that it would be wise to have a long line on this dog so that were she to break this down, you would be able to prevent the unwanted behavior of leaving as she did. Every time you allow her to leave the property, you are reinforcing this behavior.

Yep. My mistake. Lesson learned.

 Quote: leih merigian

Is an Ecollar the way to go? I don't know. It's a tool. I am certainly no Ecollar expert, but when I use one, I like to make sure the dog understands what I am asking of it before I then use the Ecollar to enforce the behavior.

I would agree with Connie's suggestion to get the DVD and watch it before investing in the Ecollar, and see what you think.

I am going to get the video. I think a dog as strong-willed as she is may not ever be completely trustworthy off-leash... at least I am preparing myself for that. And I believe that extending my authority is important. She minds well on-leash, but the lead seems to be her signal for "now I have to mind."

 Quote: leih merigian

And, I agree with Connie and Steve that you need a different trainer.

I think I am going to to to at least the first Saturday session with him. Even if I don't agree with all of his methods, I am sure that I can learn and benefit from the exercises and working with the other handlers.

 Quote: leih merigian

I really don't mean to be negative, but the more I think about it, the less realistic I think your ideal for this dog is.

Quite possible. I am very curious to see what she can become. My current expectations for her are high but not rigidly defined.

I have some questions about some of the things the trainer told me. I'd like for people to weigh in with their own opinions on the subjects.

A dog should never be allowed to roam freely in the house. Any time a dog is in the house, it should be in platz or in a crate. The house is your den and allowing the dog to roam in it sends a submissive message to the dog. The dog should be in platz observing and learning the habits of the alphas.

Never play with your dog in the house.

Never give any kind of affection unless the dog has done something to earn it. Do not stroke the dog because it sends a signal that it is alpha (pack licks the alpha). Only give "affection" by very firm pats to the dogs side/shoulder.

Never wrestle with your dog. Getting on the ground sends the message that you are on an equal level with the dog.

Those are the things that come to mind right now. I feel like there were more, but I can't remember right now.

---

Histories are more full of examples of the fidelity of dogs than of friends.

Alexander Pope

Oh yeah, another I just remembered:

• running circles in the kennel run is enough exercise for the dog.
  
  

To me Virginia, its easy to go overboard with the alpha stuff. You set the rules and the structure the dog lives with and be consistant. Maybe your trainer is advising you based on what you've told him are problems with her.

We don't allow our dogs to roam freely in the house either, but not because I'm trying to be alpha over them. I don't try to platz forever but I do crate them where they can see and hear everything.

I firmly pat on the sides and shoulders but I also hug and shove and anything else I feel like. I don't want to give you bad advice Virginia, because your looking to solve problems with a dog that I don't know. As I've learned more with my different dogs, I don't always look to the beat them into it solutions first. The best results I've had with things come with a good balance of rewarding what I want, not just correcting all the time.

 Quote: Virginia Wyeth

Oh yeah, another I just remembered:

• running circles in the kennel run is enough exercise for the dog.
  
  

Bull****

 Quote: virginia wyeth

I have some questions about some of the things the trainer told me. I'd like for people to weigh in with their own opinions on the subjects.

A dog should never be allowed to roam freely in the house. Any time a dog is in the house, it should be in platz or in a crate. The house is your den and allowing the dog to roam in it sends a submissive message to the dog. The dog should be in platz observing and learning the habits of the alphas.

Never play with your dog in the house.

Never give any kind of affection unless the dog has done something to earn it. Do not stroke the dog because it sends a signal that it is alpha (pack licks the alpha). Only give "affection" by very firm pats to the dogs side/shoulder.

Never wrestle with your dog. Getting on the ground sends the message that you are on an equal level with the dog.

Those are the things that come to mind right now. I feel like there were more, but I can't remember right now.

oh wow, I use to do all that stuff with my UberHunds but Mrs Jones made me stop, tearing up too much stuff.

Honestly, if I can't keep an eye on the puppers I put them in their kennels with chew toys and all the fun stuff is by permission only