Yea Connie,
I was addressing the whole relationship of the op and the dog.

In my world the dog knows what no means by the age of eighteen months (1 1/2 years).

 Quote: randy allen

... I was addressing the whole relationship of the op and the dog. ... In my world the dog knows what no means by the age of eighteen months (1 1/2 years).

I'm glad you posted, because now I belatedly went back to see how long the OP had had the 1.5-year-old dog (for one year). I also found the OP's first training thread here: http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=15&Number=260728&Searchpage=1&Main=25006&Words=+Kaye+L.+Barnes&topic=0&Search=true#Post260728

The pawing question is in better context if that's read first, I think, and I, at least, had neglected to look back.

I guess I am the 'OP' eh?

This dog is 15-ish months old. I found her walking down the side of the highway when she was 3-4ish months of age as a skinny pup. Had her spayed before her first heat cycle.

She lived with me and my 6yo dog (that has been in our house hold since about 6 months of age) on our horse farm.

The dogs lived together well for the first year. The 'pawing dog', Roxy, adapted well on the farm - learned some life lessons about electric fencing, not getting under foot (humans or horses) and not toying with the barn cats (my crew can take down a fox).

After about - oh I dunno I can't remember now - 4ish, 5ish months in a crate she adapted well to house life too. She only urinated in the house once, she went thru some really minor chewing of things (or stealing things that didn't belong to her), never went thru any kind of barking or destructive phase. And other than being 'puppy' she really was not 'annoying' in the house, until recently.

The two dogs lived a full year of 'liberty' in teh house (well after puppy crate training time), and liberty outside at the farm for several hours a day with me.

They ran, and ran HARD for hours and hours and hours with one another. So, naturally, when they came in the house or even with in human contact (up at the barn) the bulk of their spastic energy had been spent on one another.

I had never done any kind of treat giving to my dogs. The only 'formal' behavior training was leashing up to go for hikes (etc). They'd initially both pull a little but once we found or walk groove both would get into the zone and walk reasonably fine. While both would notice things, neither got out of control around other dogs, cats, people etc on our outings. They both rode in the car well. They both learned things like 'sit' and 'stay' or 'wait' by a wanted experience that came after (ie sit and wait for me to open the car door, sit and wait for me to open the house door, stay while I get your food - that kind of thing).

As far as 'pack' behavior the best I can say is I assume that is my leadership and some basic understanding of dogs, which is very limited. I knew enough not to let them be wild at feeding time (we had a routine/ritual and a set spot outside where they ate at calmly), we didn't rough them up in the house, no getting up on the furniture (well on occasion we'd bust them when we were not 'around' but they were not invited for cuddle fests on the furniture with the humans), they were not allowed in my bedroom.

Being out on the horse farm I don't concede to the dogs, I can't. They need to be mindful, get themselves out of the way, etc. They have learned to give everything a wide berth (people with horses, the cats, trucks, tractors etc).

NILIF - well - I dunno. I didn't really GIVE much to my dogs and like I said, after playing with one another for an hour I really didn't NEED much from them. If I wanted to pet them I did, but half the time they were sacked out in the sun in the barn aisle way or conked out on the living room floor.

They were, for the most part, polite to be around. I wasn't a treat giver, I'm not a 'momma loves her pookie pookie kissy kissy' person with my animals. So I'm not sure how to answer this. At feeding time, they had to 'back it up', 'sit' and 'wait' to be fed.

-----------------

BUT that all changed when out of the BLUE, like a bolt of lightening, the dogs go into a terrible fight one day. Now their whole life styles have changed, and Roxy is not expending nearly as many calories as she once was - thus all this 'annoying' human related behavior.

I didn't have a crazy pawing dog 3 months ago. Yeah she had 'silly energy' but she spent that on the other dog running for 3 hours a day, going hiking on the weekends etc.

And I also never gave her treats. Now I'm treating her for this that and the other (trying to learn this marker training) and now I've got a 'greedy grabber' on top of it. I'm the treat dispenser AND the boredom relief (I suspect).

The dogs live separated. They used to both have about an hour and a half to romp on the farm while I did chores before I went to work, then we'd feed the dogs, then they had some down time on the porch while I got ready for work. Then they'd have 3-4 hours of free/liberty time on 6 acres in the evening while I did farm chores.

Now each dog gets about a half hour outside in the AM, and about an hour and a half each in the evening.

I try to walk Roxy on a leash for about 15 minutes in the morning while I do the chores I can do with a dog tethered to me, and then I try to play and active game at night (usually tennis ball ChuckIt or a flying squirrel) for about 20 minutes before feeding time, and then coming in the house for the night.

 Quote: randy allen

Year and half old!!!!????
It's about time he learns NO means NO.
What ever it is, just stop it. Just say no.

Now then, you can go back to whatever. Problem solved.

Well I am going to admit something here - and its odd you posted this. This morning I was sitting on the sofa and Roxy (the dog) came up next to the sofa and sat. Then I could feel her looking at me, then she got closer, and then the paw... and there went my hot tea and I snapped at her "ROXY!*#&*$" (in a knee jerk reaction) and she fell over on to the floor... and yes, I admit, my temper spiked (I think it sounded like the voice of Satan himself came out of my mouth, yikes!). I don't normally get 'angry' with animals - but this was one of those times. But now come to think of it, I don't think she has pawed me at all today, and its been a rainy indoor day.


And like I said in my post directly before this one - with either dog, I didn't namby-pamby around with them up at the farm. If they were under my feet, they got stepped on. If I was toting feed and kicked a gate shut with my feet, the dogs learned to move it real quick.

And I've began to give some more in-depth thought to the difference between getting a dog to do something (sit, stay, down) and getting a dog to just be aware and polite in your space/world. Training with positive things (food, toy)that make the dog thing "Hmm, maybe I'll do that again" VS consequences in life that make an impression "oh, maybe I ought not do that again". I mean, because a dog shouldn't have to be 'taught' things like not getting under your feet, right?

I was watching the obedience video with the corrections for the recall where, yes the dog had been started on 'come' commands, but where he gave the command 'come' AND popped the dog at the same time. Obviously the 'come' command was not confirmed in the dog, and it was at the beginning of the learning phase. If you don't come something negative will happen and when you do come something fantastic happens.

And I don't want to have this thread stray into teaching a recall - I'm just using that as an example.

Sorry - being a horse trainer and a riding instructor for 19+ years I am fascinated with learning modalities. :-)

So I looked this up:

Operant conditioning defines these following four types of consequences.

1. Positive reinforcement adds something to the situation to increase the chance of the behavior being exhibited again.
2. Negative reinforcement removes something from the situation to increase the chance of the behavior being exhibited again.
3. Positive punishment adds something to the situation to decrease the chance of the behavior being exhibited again.
4. Negative punishment removes something from the situation to decrease the chance of the behavior being exhibited again.

So marker training would be #1 positive reinforcement (you sat so you got a treat, sit, treat, sit, treat).

And I guess in a way it would also be #2 - because your not getting your dinner until you 'sit' (NILIF?)

Touching the electric fence would be #3 positive punishment (you touched it and got your nose zapped).

Not sure what an example for #4 would be(?).

 Quote: leih merigian

One more thing...it is a good idea to save corrections for things that really mater (e.g., safety issues), and for when a dog has already learned a behavior but is refusing to perform. If you use corrections for the everyday simple stuff, like attention-seeking behavior, you'll be spending a lot more time correcting your dog than rewarding the behaviors you want to see.

Lots of words I know...

leih

I guess I ponder this because... well not sure how to word this so let me go around it a backwards way.

By the picture on your signature line, it looks like you have a dog that 'has a career', so I'll assume you produced that. At one point you learned the 'road map' so you knew what you wanted as a big over all end result (a dog getting titles or agility etc). You had 100 different things you wanted to achieve with this dog.

I'm still in the basement.

I don't foresee a future of my dog running an agility course or an obedience test. My 'bucket list' for my dog is very very short.

1. Don't leave the property - check! We got that one on lock down.

2. Don't get killed by a horse - CHECK! again we got that one on lock down.

3. Walk on a leash with out being obnoxious - (ok well not a full check but I've seen much worse at the park).

4. Don't paw people (ie invade their personal space)- because it hurts! :-\

That's my Green K9 World as seen thru my small small window.

 Quote: Kaye L. Barnes

I'm still in the basement.

I don't foresee a future of my dog running an agility course or an obedience test. My 'bucket list' for my dog is very very short.

1. Don't leave the property - check! We got that one on lock down.

2. Don't get killed by a horse - CHECK! again we got that one on lock down.

3. Walk on a leash with out being obnoxious - (ok well not a full check but I've seen much worse at the park).

4. Don't paw people (ie invade their personal space)- because it hurts! :-\

That's my Green K9 World as seen thru my small small window.

It seems to me you have been making good progress towards your goals for your dog...as evidenced in your list .

That your and my goals for our dogs differ...I'm not sure I understand the significance of this. Everyone starts out at ground zero at some point with a dog and there is no substitute for time and experience. I think it's great that you are seeking ideas for making the progress you want to make with your dog. As long as you are able to create the companion you envision, it's all gold .

leih

 Quote: Kaye L. Barnes

4. Negative punishment removes something from the situation to decrease the chance of the behavior being exhibited again.

Not sure what an example for #4 would be(?).

Ignoring a dog's attempt to get attention would be an example of this.

i.e. when you come home, the dog acts nutty racing around trying to engage you in a love-fest. You pretend he's invisible. (You are removing attention.) Eventually, dog gives up that behavior and hopefully learns that being calm is what gets your attention---because you've reinforced that by positive reinforcement for that action.)