Re: Puppy Growling and Biting When I Correct Him
[Re: Michael Pugsley ]
#263087 - 01/23/2010 05:56 PM |
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Michael,
Sounds like you've gotten what you asked for. Having fun so far?
Myself, I gave up on 'the shake' as you call it about 2 1/2 or 3 decades ago. If for no other reason, there's much more effective ways to deal with a pup.
The thing is you see, the pup doesn't 'know' anything about a human life. All it 'knows' at 12 weeks old is it has these 'things' it 'has to do'. Biting is one of those things. Elimination is another.
Getting him outside before his HAS to go is the easist to deal with. Just do it.
The biting. Firstly don't put him in a position of having to bite in self defense. Paramount that and worth saying again, don't put him in a position of having to defend himself. Especially from you.
Though I can't think of any (even as I've been there somewhere long past) I suppose there are some advantages to teaching 'no' first above everything else, but I'm not sure many trainers still espouse them.
I know redirection is hard to think of as a correction, but it is. Think of some of the things you really want him to do now and in the future. You want him to bite, so have something with you he can bite, get his attention with that. You're going to want him to sit, teach him to eagerly sit and then give him the favored bite. You're going to want him to heel, give him a bite etc etc etc.
The favored method to show these things to a pup with most world class trainers now is with marker work with food treats to start. Read up on it. It's very effective, especially with pups.
Lots of time in the future for physical corrections, hold off on that course as long as you can.
Oh and by the way, Bob Scott (on this board) trained a dog through to SchH III using nothing but markers from day one.
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Re: Puppy Growling and Biting When I Correct Him
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#263088 - 01/23/2010 05:56 PM |
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Michael,
There are some good suggestions here. One of the things I noticed you referring to is your other dog. No two dogs are really the same. Depending on what's in the dog is going to determine what and how they see the world. Some of these things are genetic and some will be their experiences. This will include your tone, inflection, and body language. It's our jobs as trainers to discover what's in there and then take it and shape and mold it to what we want to see. All this in the context of the rules of relationship.
This dog might have a low threshold for fight drive compared to your other one. This pup could also be much harder, softer, better pack drive etc... I would be careful with the whole correction thing at this stage simply because there is no reason to confirm what may be an attitude that you may not want to see in your dog later.
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Re: Puppy Growling and Biting When I Correct Him
[Re: Michael Pugsley ]
#263089 - 01/23/2010 06:01 PM |
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I have used very few corrections, less than one a day...I will admit that I could be making this situation worse depending on what I do, and perhaps it would be best to focus on pack structure, slowly introducing corrections later.
A lot of it is a frame of mind thing. You should definitely be focusing on developing your relationship, which should be based on trust. He needs to be taught what the rules and ways-of-the-road are, gently and with kindness and patience. He doesn't have a clue yet about anything! If you don't teach him about his world, and the world he shares with you, with kindness and fairness, you won't build the trust. And, it's the trust that will allow you to be able to correct him, down the line, if/when he deserves it, when it's fair and appropriate, without doing damage to your relationship.
So, the mind set needs to be one of prevention and anticipation and focus. When you are with your puppy, you should be 100% focused on him. If you can't be, put him in his crate. You should anticipate when he's about to do something and refocus him, rather than waiting for him to do it and then correcting him (for example). The point is to prevent unwanted behavior before it happens, rather than give them repeated chances to practice the same behavior, perhaps then following up with corrections.
When it comes to housetraining, any mistakes he makes in the house are yours. You're not anticipating his schedule or reading his little body well enough or whatever, depending on the situation. It's one thing to communicate to him that "this isn't where we pee," versus a harsh "No." (And, no is a word it's hard not to say harshly. If you want to simply convey a non-correct marker---that this isn't what I want---a simple "unh-unh...let's go outside"---try to say "unh-unh" in a mean voice. It takes a lot more energy than it does to say No in a harsh tone/manner.)
If you're gonna carry him outside from the midst of a mistake, I'd scoop him up and carry him in my arms, not by his scruff. I don't see what purpose that serves, other than to anger him and put him on the defensive. (I agree with Connie's wondering about whether this may have been submissive peeing in this situation; you're a big guy, he's a little puppy, and you've been tough with him, which to me is another indicator that you really need to focus on building trust and your relationship.)
Also, I'd give some thought to the meaning of the word, "correction." Any time you convey information to your puppy that says, "here, this is what I want," or, "nope, not quite right...let's try again," that's a correction. That's a fair correction for a puppy. It's a correction in the sense that it's conveying feedback information about behavior. But, it's the modifiers that will get you...no "harsh" corrections, especially harsh "physical" corrections. I think when you think of correction, you're thinking mostly in terms of fairly strong physical corrections.
I'd get into a mindset of outsmarting your puppy, versus relying on being able to overpower him physically. Look for things to reward him for constantly; the more you reinforce what he does that you like, the more he'll do it.
leih
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Re: Puppy Growling and Biting When I Correct Him
[Re: leih merigian ]
#263090 - 01/23/2010 06:14 PM |
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Jenni, partly my fault for saying 10 weeks when I should've said 10.5 weeks.
Thanks for the responses everyone else. I'm a bit old-school I guess, and maybe have to get with the times. I've been trying that, although I think I was a little too hard on my current adult dog at times. I will try to refresh my knowledge of and focus on markers. leih, I really liked your post.
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Re: Puppy Growling and Biting When I Correct Him
[Re: Michael Pugsley ]
#263118 - 01/23/2010 09:55 PM |
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Micheal,
Maybe this pup isn't a good fit for you?
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Re: Puppy Growling and Biting When I Correct Him
[Re: Al Curbow ]
#263122 - 01/23/2010 10:33 PM |
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My new pup hated the cold, I think it frightened him. Real cold is dangerous for a little guy. Taught him to pee on papers in a spare bathroom. Kept a little stash of dry cat food in there. Get him out of his crate, put him in there until he pees -- then one piece of dry cat food and "good boy". Now he pees and poops in there, goes there himself, VERY few accidents. Easier than opening the door and carrying him out into the snow every 15 minutes.
He's getting too big for this deal, but it did end up being something he learned quickly and it built our relationship. He could do it all by himself and get cat food too!
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Re: Puppy Growling and Biting When I Correct Him
[Re: Betty Landercasp ]
#263129 - 01/24/2010 08:27 AM |
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Michael, if your intent is to train this dog for protection, you don't want to be correcting him for biting at this point. That is going to make your bitework impossible down the road. Also, you don't want to destroy his drive by draining him down to complete subservience. Then you end up with a dog that throws itself on the ground and belly-crawls in fear anytime a human being approaches. I've seen this a lot.
At this stage, your puppy isn't "biting" he's "mouthing". If you are a big guy, then you should be able to break away and IGNORE the puppy when he mouths on you.
As for corrections, those don't start until you've done some SOLID obedience work with your pup. He needs to know commands and behaviors and understand you crystal clear when you ask something of him. Corrections should only take place when he knows damn well that he shouldn't be doing whatever he is doing. Depending on what age you start him on obdience, and how much you work at it, maybe the SOONEST would be 6 months. Ideally after the dog is a year old. But every dog matures at a different rate.
So... moral of the story... Correcting a puppy is a waste of time. They are too immature mentally to understand WHY they are being corrected. IGNORE the unwanted behavior and start on some simple basic training. Sit, down, whatever. Lots of POSITIVE rewards, and no acknowledgment of bad behavior other than an "Oops!" if he goofs.
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Re: Puppy Growling and Biting When I Correct Him
[Re: Jessica Pedicord ]
#263137 - 01/24/2010 09:20 AM |
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He's not mouthing; he's biting because he feels he has to defend himself. Reread the first post. Wouldn't YOU bite Michael, Jessica?
Michael, I'm glad you are open to the possibility that you may have gone too far in your efforts to establish hierarchy. Hopefully, now you can concentrate on building a bond with him. Remember, he doesn't even know you; he just got here less than 2 weeks ago from another country, and he's already felt he had to fight to defend himself. Ease up and I bet in a few short weeks, if not days, you'll see a differene.
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Re: Puppy Growling and Biting When I Correct Him
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#263143 - 01/24/2010 10:02 AM |
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The way I read it was that when he corrects for mouthing, the mouthing turns to biting. There's a clear lack of detail that is a bit confusing.
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Re: Puppy Growling and Biting When I Correct Him
[Re: Jessica Pedicord ]
#263147 - 01/24/2010 10:46 AM |
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Too many years of nasty ass terriers to use shaking for correction. I've never seen it used by a dog on dog for anything other than punishment. Nothing to do with correction.
If a mother dog scruffs her pups it's to pin and imobilize it, NOT to shake the crap out of it. When a pup shakes another pup it's usually about "my winkie is bigger then your winkie".
CALMLY Lift the dog by the scruff (front feet only if it's too big) until it calms down. It may fight like hell but it WILL calm down...unless it has crap nerves but that's another story.
You said the dog is peeing as you are going outside.
Possibly anticipating the punishment coming from the last time it headed towards the door and got the crap shook out of it.
Think about that!
You could originally lift the pup by the scruff with no problems then it escalated. WHY? I'm guessing you brought the level up and the pup responded with stress, NOT AGGRESSION!
As many here have commented, go back to basic house breaking. My first rule of house breaking is if the pup is still messing in the house "I'M" doing something wrong.
Hard to tell from a written post but I think this dog has no trust/faith in you as a leader. Leadership has nothing to do with power. It's about out thinking the dog.
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