Ruby,

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We have always wondered what we could of done differently in case we encounter this situation again. . . . Yes, I do agree with the pack order. It was my husband, Riesz, then myself in Riesz eyes. Yes, I do agree with the fact that when he was corrected severely that he was also upping his level of agression towards us. Kind of like telling us "He's not taking our S--T" anymore! . . . There have been post concerning me bonding with Riesz and not earning his respect. I understand this, so.....how do you do this with this type of dog?

I'll tell you what I remember about a GSD that a trainer-friend of mine was given years ago, why he was given the dog and what he did to get the dog under control. Maybe it will help answer some of your questions.

My friend, Kevin, is a long-time personal protection dog & police dog trainer with a kennel as well as a companion dog training business. One of his clients had a year old GSD that sounded very much like your Reisz -- they couldn't handle the dog and it was becoming increasingly dangerous for the family. They gave the dog to Kevin as a last resort before putting him down.

I had known several of the dogs personally in this dogs pedigree -- all German imports including one East German -- it was an excellent pedigree with all working lines including SchH and HGH. I also knew personally a couple of the dog's litter mates -- none of which had developed ANY kind of similar problem.

When Kevin got the dog it was off the wall! No one could go into its kennel run except Kevin -- the dog would have literally killed anyone else. Kevin showed me the dog while it was out in the exercise pen -- I looked through a window at the dog below who was looking up at me about 4 feet away -- I will NEVER forget the look in that dog's eyes jst before it tried to nail me through tha window -- it is the ONLY time I have ever been afraid of a dog -- it actually made my skin crawl.

Kevin knew the whole background situation of the dog. Basically, the family had been told to discipline the dog using the alpha rollover technique popularized by the Monks of New Skete years ago to show dominance and force the dog into a position of submission. In Kevin's opinion, that technique is what put that dog over the edge -- it had exactly the opposite effect that it was supposed to have -- it pushed the dog into what you said you saw in Riesz: "He's not taking our S--T" anymore!" You know the rest of the story -- the dog was completely unapproachable by anyone except Kevin -- it was NOT out of fear -- that dog was driven by the most incredible ANGER I have ever seen.

Kevin had just perfected a training technique using the dog's natural instincts as opposed to compulsion to train everything from basic obedience to police protection. This dog was to be his test case -- if the technique worked on this dog, he knew it would work on anything.

Basically, Kevin would teach the dog to look to him as the source of everything. The dog would learn it had to access what it wanted only through Kevin. In the beginning this was done with food. The only way the dog ate was to eat while training. First, Kevin would just hand feed the dog in its run. Then the dog would be taken out on lead and worked using food to shape the behavior. No punishing corrections of any kind were ever used. After Kevin & the dog bonded through food and work, a ball was also used as a reward and to relieve stress during training exercises. The dog progressed to 100% reliable off-lead work with strangers around in only a matter of months. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I doubt I would have believed it. The dog was still as intense and high drive as he was when Kevin first got him but ALL that power and aggression and anger was brought under control by working him the way Kevin did -- working WITH the dog's drives instead of trying to supress them. By the end of the training process Kevin was using a prong collar -- not for punishment but for stimulation. IOW the prong actually increased the dog's drive instead of dampening it. If the prong had been used to try to bring this dog under control in the beginning as a negative punishment, the dog would have eaten Kevin alive -- the prong would have created a totally adversarial relationship with Kevin. Instead, using food and then a ball and a prong later Kevin was able to develop a totally cooperative relationship with this dog -- one in which both man & dog worked together toward some common goal -- the dog had learned to access everything THROUGH Kevin. Basically it is letting the dog learn that you are the pathway to EVERYTHING positive.

My brain just died so I'm going to end it here. It's hard to explain but take my word for it, it's not using food or balls as a bribe -- the dog has to WORK for them -- the dog has to figure out for itself how to WORK for what it wants or needs -- it's not a game -- it's a purpose to the dog.

Hi Ruby,
It sounds like you did most everything you possibly could have to be a positive influence on your dog. The only thing I might have further offered as suggestion has now been discussed at length by Ellen.
This is pretty much how I raise and train all my dogs- so they begin to think the sun rises and sets on me.
It is also possible that this dog had a few "screws loose" as well- you may find out about this when you meet the new owner/trainer. Brain tumors can cause irrational behaviour in dogs, something I've seen before, in a Doberman I rescued, and kept for several months, until he "lost it".
Best Wishes, Bob

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Originally posted by Ruby:
So let's try this one more time.....Chuck F., Ellen, Vince, J Parker, etc.....HOW WOULD OF YOU HANDLED RIESZ IF HE WAS YOUR DOG??????

Ruby, I already posted what I would have done. Reread my post, and let me reiterate:

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I think that it should have been clear when the dog first responded to attempts at correction with aggression that there was an issue here. At that point, I would have worked really hard to avoid physical correction, and instead, teach the dog that in order to eat, poop, sleep, practically in order to breathe, he has to earn it. You don't do this through physical force, but rather through psychological manipulation, where you show the dog that you are the leader by simply being the leader, rather than trying to assert your dominance through physical force.

This is essentially what Ellen's friend Kevin did with the dog in her example.

You said that "One day I was on the computer and turned around and he came at me from another room, barking, snapping, and in full tilt mode!". That made me think that you turned around and made eye contact with him. Regardless, taking advantage of a moment of weakness in which you are totally vulnerable to him smacks of him trying to take your rank for himself.

Bob S. is right, this dog could have something really wrong with him, such as a brain tumor or other illness, or is just plain nuts. This isn't neccessarily a learned behavior....I was just thinking out loud, like I said.

Ruby,

I have had a couple of days to think about this. There are a couple of things I would suggest you think about.

With a dominant dog direct confrontation is often going to create this type of behavior. What I do if I can is to redirect the aggression in to obedience. We go through a hard fast routine with several downs in the series. Down is a submissive position for the dog. Since the dog is conditioned to respond to the obedience commands it will often do it with out thinking about it.

The second thing may get a little touchy for some. Any time you are training with a dog and what you are doing doesn't work, change it. It sounds simple, but is often hard. You can get locked into the idea that "this worked before, it should work now". The other problem with this is knowing when to give up on a technique. It is something you have to do by feel. If you are getting frustrated with a training method change it.

The dog charging you is an example of where you could have been sending the dog the wrong signals. Usually this is not something that starts as a full blown assualt. There are some "tests", stopping farther away, and less intense. If you ignore it or move out of the dogs way than you are encouraging the behavior. If the dog gets away with it, then the next challenge will be stronger. Sooner or later the dog gets the idea that this behavior will establish some control over you. It isn't always a person seen in a subordinate position that is attacked. I have a Giant that at 6 will still periodacly give me a bluff charge. I go into the obedience routine, if the challange is not redirected then I get a hold of him and hang him.

Usually the dog has a reason, you just may not be able to figure out what it is. If the dogs is sound, then he is getting some benifit out of it, even if it is just to scare you as a method to achieve dominance. Body position is often used to create dominance in dogs. On thing we learned is that the dog must move out of your way, not you move for the dog. Bumping is another example of the same thing. We put the dog in the crate for that also, no hollerin' or fuss. Just put him calmly in the crate for a while.

The other thing I noticed is the list of things he chewed up. How did he get to them? I keep dogs that I can't directly supervise in a crate to keep them out of mischief. Once bad habits start they are hard to break, so wh not just prevent them? Keep the dog where you can see it and make a firm correction as soon as the behavior starts. Part of the reason he didn't want to play with you is he was entertaining himself by chewing things up. Your reaction to that probably reinforced it.

It sounds like something would work or the dog wouldn't have been trained as a PPD. It may be you just didn't have it in you to make the change. Like you said, not every dog is for everybody. I would also suggest that rather than a group situation get a trainer that will work with you individually, preferably someone that trains PPD, and is used to this type of behavior. Training is more of an art than a science. It is better to recognize the problem and correct it, get help, or get rid of the dog (like you did). The earlier the better, the longer a problem goes the harder it is to correct.

This is certainly an interesting problem and an issue that is difficult to explain over the good old internet. In the end people will just have insufficient information to really know what happened or how to prevent it. It's just a guessing game and in the end only you and the people who handled your dog will see what really might have happened.

if I were to make my small guess I would break the problem down into 3 possibilities:

1. Genetically bad temperament
2. Mental illness
3. Handler error

#1 and #2 could be addressed by the question: How is the dog doing today? What kind of problems did the new handler observe and how did they deal with them?

#3 is the tricky one because nobody ever observed what happened in your household day in and out. If for the sake of argument you really faced a dominance issue then I would say that at the time your dog first charged you...the situation was already out of control. Dominance issues can creep up on you in small steps that may seem insignificant:

Who eats first?
Who goes out of the door first?
Who sleeps on the bed or in the primary and preferred spot?
(I am sure Ed has an article on this somewhere...)

Here is a question: As your dog grew up, were you always comfortabe stirring your hand in his food bowl while he was eating? Did you ever do anything like that? Were you always comfortable taking a bone or chew toy away from him? At what point did you not dare doing anything like that and what caused you to feel uncomfortable (assuming that at one point you did feel uncomfortable with this). With my dogs I make it a point that I am able to have my hand in their bowl while they are eating...picking up a few pieces and letting them eat out of my hand...praising them for being ok with it...a dog with dominance issues probably would let you know...and I would guess he would let you know early on at an age where you can still easily grab him by the scruff of the neck, apply a little shake to make him squeel...back to the food...back to the hand..and if he is ok with it then...lots of praise..

There are other points one needs to pay attention to with a dominant dog, some dealing with the questions I posed above. You also mentioned that he chewed things up...personally I dont like to unneccesarily correct my puppies because of future protection goals. Rather than correcting them I would make sure that my house is puppyproof and that they cannot get into things. Easier said then done of course....but if you feel that there is a problem you need to pay attention to 2 things: Consistency and Timing. If the dog does something you dont like...and you tell him NO and he still does it...give him a correction (scruff of the neck...and shake e.g.)...if he goes back...NO..harder correction...at any point in this you can also just take a toy and divert his attention to something else...let his energy go elsewhere, to do something good. Each time a NO is ignored, it is a challenge to your authority, I suppose that most of the times there will be little consequences to a few ignored NO's but if you have a dog with dominance issues...that can be bad.
The other aspect is TIMING...you know that you only have about 3 seconds to give your dog praise/correction and have the dog make the right connection between the behaviour and the praise/correction. As the dog charged you, you said he got a correction...did this happen within 3-5 seconds?

Some guys mentioned a level 10 correction...putting the fear of God into him....as the dog charged you, the already out of control situation became a life and death situation...probably it wasnt really your life at stake but your dogs...many dogs that charge their owners die one way or another...it is an extreme situation...the ball has already been dropped, the mistakes have already been made...and a level 10 correction is of course relative to what your dog can handle..a level 10 correction done on me may not be the same as a level 10 done on you...As this dog seriously charged you for the first time you should have given him a level 10 correction...whatever that may be for your dog...and this needs to be done 3-5 seconds...you may be in shock but if you delay it...you practically ignore it and your dog won. He backed you down and put you in your place..how dare you to ever challenge him again...If you missed your opportunity you need to set up the situation...prong collar attached and ready to do...take his favorite toy away...take food from him...and any sign of aggression will be followed by a harsh correction (again depending on what is harsh for your particular dog). Of course I would do the above with the proper safety equipment (hard plastic glove on the hand, hidden sleeve? bite coat?) It seems dangerous and can be ugly but its better than having him charge you at random.

In the end I would also like to mention that prevention is obviously much better than reacting to the problem. One thought I had right away as I read the story was that how could this happen if you have a strong bond with your dog? But then again, there are many things I havent seen yet. Let me just say again that I do not know your dog and I dont know you...therefore take my comments as guesses and random thoughts. None of this may apply to your dog and in the end you could have just had a dog with bad temperament...

PS: I do find it interesting that none of the top trainers have responded so far to this problem...I wonder if this is because they know that you simply cant make a fair assesment of the dog over the internet and that its all guesswork?(...Or maybe they are just waiting for us to make fools out of ourselves before they share their knowledge LOL...ok I was just kidding)

Well, well, well. Now you are talking… Excellent posts, everyone--this is what makes this forum so valuable. Ruby, if I were you, I would print all this and study it at leisure until it sinks in.

***(...Or maybe they are just waiting for us to make fools out of ourselves before they share their knowledge LOL...ok I was just kidding)***

Steffen, if that's the case, count me as one of the fools, at least I'll be in good company... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Did someone just call me a fool??? Ooops, there I go again! (just kidding)LOL!

I asked for Lou's help on this one. I have some remarks but I'll wait to hear from Lou first.

Lou has responded to me that without seeing a dog in person it is hard to make an educated reponse. With so many of us that respect his comments I agree with his stance. Thank you Lou.

I agree with Lou, and would like to add something. Ruby, don't beat yourself up over this. Probably you did nothing wrong, and at least the story has a happy ending. Glad to hear your new dog is working out well, and I doubt you will ever have a dog like the one you had again.