I worked nights surveying for owls in the Siskiyou National Forest on the Oregon border. Come November, the area was swarming with hunters. They liked to camp out, get drunk, and drive the roads looking for little black-tail the next morning. One night I came back to the NF campground to find the place overrun with drunken hunters. Big guys, down from Mount Shasta. I pulled the truck up to my campsite, let out my dog, and figured I'd call it a night.

As I was arranging the gear, my dog started barking a very serious bark, then a low growl. I could barely see someone stumbling towards my campsite in the glow of the campfires. I took hold of my dog's collar, and he positioned himself in front of me, growling, hackles up, tail stiff. A very drunk hunter approached. He mumbled that he wanted to "lick me all over". I cursed myself for leaving my bear spray in the car. When the guy came toward me, my dog lunged at him, grabbed his shirt in the hip area, and knocked him to the ground. The guy was very drunk, and my dog wouldn't let him get up. I quickly fished my bear spray out of the truck, and was ready to use it.

Fortunately, one of the very drunk hunter's friends saw what was happening, apologized, and dragged his friend away. My dog's teeth hadn't broken the skin, he hadn't continued to attack after the guy was down. He did exactly what he needed to do so I could grab my 'weapon' and defend myself.

Why did he do this? Was it fear, territoriality? I really don't care.

He did what needed to be done, the one time I've really felt in danger from a person. He was certainly no PPD, and never bit anyone before or after the incident.

I never filed a report with anybody- I moved camp the next day, and kept dog, machete, and bear spray on hand the rest of the night.

Granted, the guy was very drunk, he didn't fight. My dog didn't break the skin, or act on a trained command. There was no cell phone service at the campground, the nearest cops were stationed in Yreka. The authorities weren't coming anytime soon. The guy was drunk and an idiot.

Perhaps I could have handled the guy on my own. He was drunk, after all. But he also had about a 100 lb weight advantage, he was male, he was excited. I wouldn't put myself in that type of situation again, but I was very glad I had Tilos with me. Oh, and he never did any other heroics. Besides being a great dog, excellent companion, and amazing trail finder (useful when the headlight goes out at night).

Kiersten,
While you may think that your dog saved you from a would-be attacker ( as he may well have ), since the man hadn't actually attacked you, you would have most likely ended up liable for the man's injuries in a court of law with the possibility of taking a huge financial hit and maybe even ending up having to euth your dog under court order for an incident like that.

I've seen that very scenario end up like that - unfair? Yep, but without the drunk actually causing a threat, it would be treated as a dog attack by law enforcement. And all it would take was the guy getting a hungry lawyer and you would have end up getting screwed.
Again, unfair - but you used *deadly* force against someone making a remark to you, and the legal system takes a very dim view of this.

And to be clear, this isn't meant as a criticism at all, it's just a realistic view of what *could* have happened - the legal system is often unfair.

Thanks for your input, Will. Because he didn't break the skin, and the attacker probably remembered nothing but a blinding headache the next day, nothing further came of it. I learned a lot personally though.

I wonder how long I would have to wait before I wouldn't have been sued for (possibly) blinding the attacker with bear spray. Until he was on top of me? (then we'd both get hit with spray). Also, probably no witnesses.

Out of curiousity, what would it take for a PPD to be justified in attack? Does the attacker need to physically assault the handler, threaten with a gun, threaten verbally, start to unzipper the tent (open the door of a home)? Or is this all in another thread?

The dog involved in this incident died two years ago, but I am curious. Then again, you hear cases of burglars suing for cutting their hands breaking into a house so...

Do we need a new thread? I'll bet this has been covered before.

All good questions.
Unfortunately, it would depend from state to state.

For instance, in your state ( Mass. ) the castle doctrine is extremely weak and plays to the criminals advantage, so there are well publicized cases of people doing prison time for defending themselves, where if they had lived in a state that took a more sensible view on self defense, there wouldn't have even have been a grand jury invoked.

In your case, with a "he said she said" scenario with no witnesses, deployment of deadly force is going to be *closely* evaluated by law enforcement and the court system, so as much as I hate to say it, physical evidence in the form of ripped clothing or injuries to you would be paramount for your defense.

Just these past couple of weeks there was a case of a truly dangerous gang threatening a home owner, they gathered on his lawn and told him that they'd kill his family. He had armed himself with an semi-auto AK clone and shot three rounds into the ground to scare them off. No one was injured, but guess who got arrested? The man defending his family - and his family was left totally undefended while he dealt with the idiot court system. This happened in New York state, which is just another example while I would never consider living in one of the socialist leaning states ( New York, California, Mass., etc. ) that deny citizens the basic right to self defense.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/07/long-island-man-arrested-for-defending-home-with-ak-47/

OK, off my rant and back onto the subject - if you use a trained PPD for self defense, it needs to be a clear-cut situation of defense of self ( or in some states, property also ). If it occurs at home, you are best served by calling 911 and having them on the line *while* you are defending yourself ( unless of course this is a rapid attack like a home invasion scenario......and by simply having a PPD, you're not going to be part of a home invasion, unless you're a drug dealer, end of story ).

For a verbal threat, you just can't use deadly force, whether it be a trained PPD or a gun, it just doesn't meet the legal standards there. And a verbal threat with the display of a weapon by a would-be attacker.........then the law would usually be on your side.

I'm going to make a recommendation here. There's a self defense trainer that has a few shows on the Outdoor Channel named Rob Pincus, who was an LEO and has made an excellent 3 DVD set regarding armed self-defense. I always advise people to attend one of the high level self defense schools, but just reviewing the information presented in this DVD set would go a long way towards answering most people's questions regarding a whole slew of "what if" questions. They're well worth the cash and your over all day-to-day safety would take a big jump if you view these and take their lessons to heart, and 75% of the information could just as well be about deploying a PPD instead of using a firearm, so there you are!
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/

 Quote: will rambeau

I'm going to make a recommendation here. There's a self defense trainer that has a few shows on the Outdoor Channel named Rob Pincus, who was an LEO and has made an excellent 3 DVD set regarding armed self-defense. I always advise people to attend one of the high level self defense schools, but just reviewing the information presented in this DVD set would go a long way towards answering most people's questions regarding a whole slew of "what if" questions. They're well worth the cash and your over all day-to-day safety would take a big jump if you view these and take their lessons to heart, and 75% of the information could just as well be about deploying a PPD instead of using a firearm, so there you are!
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/

Couldn't agree more - we have them and they are excellent. Normally this type of info/dvd puts me to sleep but I found these really interesting, down to earth and informative.

 Quote:

I'm going to make a recommendation here. There's a self defense trainer that has a few shows on the Outdoor Channel named Rob Pincus, who was an LEO and has made an excellent 3 DVD set regarding armed self-defense. I always advise people to attend one of the high level self defense schools, but just reviewing the information presented in this DVD set would go a long way towards answering most people's questions regarding a whole slew of "what if" questions. They're well worth the cash and your over all day-to-day safety would take a big jump if you view these and take their lessons to heart, and 75% of the information could just as well be about deploying a PPD instead of using a firearm, so there you are!
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/

I want to thank you Will for this suggestion! This does seem very worth the time and money! Thanks for posting, I appreciate it!

Thanks Will. I have checked out the site, and will be getting those videos. Situations happen occasionally where I wonder... what if.

You are a great source of information. Thanks for the insight and advice.

Glad to help ya'll, I want all my friends safe, healthy, and free!

I might be somewhat more libertarian on this front of self defense. And I want to put my ante into the pot.

If I feel threatened I'm taking action. Questions and answers will happen later, the law not withstanding. I'm not going to be second guessed by some thug because I stopped to gauge whether or not the law deemed my actions appropriate, that's the only time I might have to save my life and or limb.

To the dogs.
Because so many find barking dogs intimidating, teaching a dog to bark on command is so simple (pick a word, any word) it's almost a throw away question. I've said it in the past and I'll say it again, I find a quiet attentive staring dog much more intimidating then a frantic barking jumping at the end of the lead mindless animal.
You want a (somewhat) natural partner, teach your dog quiet attentiveness and to move on command.
It doesn't matter where it moves or what it's intent is only that it moves......it gives you that one chance, the bad guy will watch the dog first.

I 100% agree Randy. Nice post; I'd give you another star if I could figure out how.

When I decided to bring a dog into my family as a companion; I automatically took responsibility for his protection. IMO we both can't be the protector so like it or not (and I think he likes it alot) Thor defers to me.

A bark on command is ideal. IMO anything more is too much pressure on the dog not to mention too much liability on me.....I live in leaping liberal Mass.