First off I think you are a excellent breeder of a ACDs, Ingrid. If I were interested in the breed, I'd contact you in a heartbeat about locating a good dog. But I don't think that working breeders being involved with AKC is going to change much.

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My biggest irritant is the greek chorus of AKC conformation ruins breeds. No, breeders ruin breeds and if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem in my opinion.

While it is certainly true that breeders make or break breeds, I believe the AKC as an organization doesn't care except for the financial bottom line. Check out the book "The Dog Wars" to see how the AKC "worked" with working BC breeders

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Absolutely not! But it has to start somewhere. People like to say that they won't waste their time swimming upstream by getting involved with AKC groups but that to me is like voting in my opinion - if you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain about the state of our country ;-)

From my POV the AKC is not the only game in town, they are not the end all when it comes to dogs, so I really don't care about trying to change them. I'd rather preserve a breed that I care about and I think this can best be done without the AKC putting their fingers in the pot.

I know I'm coming from a different mentality, but certain breeds sure don't need the conformation ring. Right now I would much rather see a breed split in Border Collies. I'd like to see the AKC close their books on the BC so people can see the difference between dogs bred for conformation or sports (I'm talking flyball, agility, and the like) and dogs bred for work.

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get involved with the AKC breed club, be an example of what the breed's potential is, encourage programs that reward dogs for being sound, versatile workers

AKC venues do not showcase what a good working Border Collie is capable of. They can't. They need to have events that a wide variety of breeds can compete at. The Border Collie is a specialized breed. Completing an AKC herding courses should be completing second grade to a well bred BC.

I think you are a excellent breeder of a ACDs, Ingrid. If I were interested in the breed, I'd contact you in a heartbeat about locating a good dog.

Judges, who represent the AKC, decide who wins best in show.
Breeders breed to that standard.

Almost universally any breed the AKC touches suffers under their purview.

 Quote: katie finlay

That's definitely right, but I don't think the working dog should stop being shown. If enough people see enough of the beautiful, soundly structured and minded GSD, they might soon begin to realize what these "respectable" show breeders are truly doing to the breed.

Or maybe I just have high hopes.

Katie, if a w/l GSD were to enter the show ring, even at the lowest of low levels, the judge would not even barely look at the dog as it passed by, never mind pin it. So showing them would get you nowwhere,except to fill the pockets of the AKC with your hard-earned cash to enter the show. The exposure to what a GSD SHOULD look like would be practically nil. I will also add that there is alot of 'politics' in the dogs show world as there is in the horse show world.

I always cringe when the show the herding/working groups in the big shows, that they televise, (& I have been to live shows thru the years)because it is a know fact that with little exception, most of these dogs could never do the 'job' that they were originally intended to do. Too bad they don't make it a show requirement for the dogs to have working titles BEFORE they can be shown in the breed rings. But we all know that will never happen.

Also understand Ingrid, that the ACD is a relatively new breed to the AKC. It has only been an accepted breed since 1980, only 30 years. The GSD has been an accepted breed since 1908, 102 years. Wait another 72 years & then see what the AKC is showing as the standard for the breed. I would venture a guess that it won't look or be able to work anything like it does today.

I agree that there are some wl breeders that are bad breeders, but they will not sell dogs for long, at least not working dogs to working homes, if they can't do the job or physically fall apart in short order. Word travels fast within the working world,just like the horse world, if a breeder is selling bad dogs. They won't be in business for long if they have to pawn off their wl dogs to pet people. The show people always seem to be better able to get rid of non show-quality dogs for big $$$$. This keeps them far more able to stay in the breeding business churning out these dogs.

I agree with Randy, if the AKC doesn't change what they feel is the standard & the judges to pin to that, there will be no change. Since the breeders keep the kennel clubs afloat, I don't see that changing anytime soon. It is very sad in my opinion.

Ingrid, we will just have to agree to disagree on some points. I love your dogs & what your dream is for your breed. For the sake of the ACD, I hope that you are able to make a dent in the mentality of the kennel club show breeders. More people should be as dedicated to their breed as they are their egos & bank accounts, as you are.

 Quote:

Also understand Ingrid, that the ACD is a relatively new breed to the AKC. It has only been an accepted breed since 1980, only 30 years. The GSD has been an accepted breed since 1908, 102 years. Wait another 72 years & then see what the AKC is showing as the standard for the breed. I would venture a guess that it won't look or be able to work anything like it does today.

I understand the ACD is relatively new to the AKC and I guess if people want to lay the blame on the AKC and stop showing their working ACDs in the AKC than yes it will change but that is not happening and as long as I and many others have the ability to be involved in dogs we will volunteer our time as a breed club members and continue to show our dogs in the breed ring to ensure it doesn't.

 Quote:

I agree with Randy, if the AKC doesn't change what they feel is the standard & the judges to pin to that, there will be no change. Since the breeders keep the kennel clubs afloat, I don't see that changing anytime soon. It is very sad in my opinion.

The AKC doesn't change standards. The breed clubs for the breed must vote to change the standard. Hence the need to have working people active members of the breed club. But again, the standard isn't the issue - it is the interpretation of the standard. It is the people educating the judges at nationals. Working people don't want to volunteer their time, than yes, the conformation people WILL.

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Ingrid, we will just have to agree to disagree on some points. I love your dogs & what your dream is for your breed. For the sake of the ACD, I hope that you are able to make a dent in the mentality of the kennel club show breeders. More people should be as dedicated to their breed as they are their egos & bank accounts, as you are.

Here's the thing - in my breed there is no need to make a "dent" in the pure breed ring people because our club works hard to ensure there is not a split in the breed by encouraging work AND structure. My Frost has two generations of dual champions (herding and breed) that also work on farms/ranches and it will soon likely be 3 generations. Sinjin comes straight off a working ranch and has generations of pure MT cattle ranch dogs behind him and he is a breed CH. My point is people like to bitch about the AKC as the evil empire but it is the breeders that are screwing up breeds.

To be perfectly frank, I did not start this debate to have accolades thrown at me or be patted on the back about my practices as a dog fancier. I started it because I am sick and tired of having people like me labeled as stupid AKC show people when that is a completely untrue generalization. There are plenty of ignorant breeders out there - be they focus more on show or more on working - and my point is the mere fact that one shows in the AKC breed ring does not automatically make one an idiot.

Don't want to play in the AKC venues? That is fine and I respect your choice not to do so. I am fully aware that it is not the only game in town for most breeds. Hell, I compete in UKC, SchH, weight pulling, AHBA, ASCA - all of which is not AKC. But when you complain about the AKC being the root of all evil when it comes to the downfall of breeds, you won't have any sway with me because as I said in a previous post, if you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain....

I have said my final piece on this thread and I think I will go out and train my dog for the AKC utility ring - that is if my dog and I aren't too stupid to do so

The AKC breed standard:


German Shepherd Dog Breed Standard
Herding Group
General Appearance
The first impression of a good German Shepherd Dog is that of a strong, agile, well muscled animal, alert and full of life. It is well balanced, with harmonious development of the forequarter and hindquarter. The dog is longer than tall, deep-bodied, and presents an outline of smooth curves rather than angles. It looks substantial and not spindly, giving the impression, both at rest and in motion, of muscular fitness and nimbleness without any look of clumsiness or soft living. The ideal dog is stamped with a look of quality and nobility--difficult to define, but unmistakable when present. Secondary sex characteristics are strongly marked, and every animal gives a definite impression of masculinity or femininity, according to its sex.

Temperament
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.

Size, Proportion, Substance
The desired height for males at the top of the highest point of the shoulder blade is 24 to 26 inches; and for bitches, 22 to 24 inches.

The German Shepherd Dog is longer than tall, with the most desirable proportion as 10 to 8½. The length is measured from the point of the prosternum or breastbone to the rear edge of the pelvis, the ischial tuberosity. The desirable long proportion is not derived from a long back, but from overall length with relation to height, which is achieved by length of forequarter and length of withers and hindquarter, viewed from the side.

Head
The head is noble, cleanly chiseled, strong without coarseness, but above all not fine, and in proportion to the body. The head of the male is distinctly masculine, and that of the bitch distinctly feminine.

The expression keen, intelligent and composed. Eyes of medium size, almond shaped, set a little obliquely and not protruding. The color is as dark as possible. Ears are moderately pointed, in proportion to the skull, open toward the front, and carried erect when at attention, the ideal carriage being one in which the center lines of the ears, viewed from the front, are parallel to each other and perpendicular to the ground. A dog with cropped or hanging ears must be disqualified.

Seen from the front the forehead is only moderately arched, and the skull slopes into the long, wedge-shaped muzzle without abrupt stop. The muzzle is long and strong, and its topline is parallel to the topline of the skull. Nose black. A dog with a nose that is not predominantly black must be disqualified. The lips are firmly fitted. Jaws are strongly developed. Teeth --42 in number--20 upper and 22 lower--are strongly developed and meet in a scissors bite in which part of the inner surface of the upper incisors meet and engage part of the outer surface of the lower incisors. An overshot jaw or a level bite is undesirable. An undershot jaw is a disqualifying fault. Complete dentition is to be preferred. Any missing teeth other than first premolars is a serious fault.

Neck, Topline, Body
The neck is strong and muscular, clean-cut and relatively long, proportionate in size to the head and without loose folds of skin. When the dog is at attention or excited, the head is raised and the neck carried high; otherwise typical carriage of the head is forward rather than up and but little higher than the top of the shoulders, particularly in motion.

Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short.

The whole structure of the body gives an impression of depth and solidity without bulkiness.

Chest--Commencing at the prosternum, it is well filled and carried well down between the legs. It is deep and capacious, never shallow, with ample room for lungs and heart, carried well forward, with the prosternum showing ahead of the shoulder in profile. Ribs well sprung and long, neither barrel-shaped nor too flat, and carried down to a sternum which reaches to the elbows. Correct ribbing allows the elbows to move back freely when the dog is at a trot. Too round causes interference and throws the elbows out; too flat or short causes pinched elbows. Ribbing is carried well back so that the loin is relatively short. Abdomen firmly held and not paunchy. The bottom line is only moderately tucked up in the loin.

Loin Viewed from the top, broad and strong. Undue length between the last rib and the thigh, when viewed from the side, is undesirable. Croup long and gradually sloping.

Tail bushy, with the last vertebra extended at least to the hock joint. It is set smoothly into the croup and low rather than high. At rest, the tail hangs in a slight curve like a saber. A slight hook- sometimes carried to one side-is faulty only to the extent that it mars general appearance. When the dog is excited or in motion, the curve is accentuated and the tail raised, but it should never be curled forward beyond a vertical line. Tails too short, or with clumpy ends due to ankylosis, are serious faults. A dog with a docked tail must be disqualified.

Forequarters
The shoulder blades are long and obliquely angled, laid on flat and not placed forward. The upper arm joins the shoulder blade at about a right angle. Both the upper arm and the shoulder blade are well muscled. The forelegs, viewed from all sides, are straight and the bone oval rather than round. The pasterns are strong and springy and angulated at approximately a 25-degree angle from the vertical. Dewclaws on the forelegs may be removed, but are normally left on. The feet are short, compact with toes well arched, pads thick and firm, nails short and dark.

Hindquarters
The whole assembly of the thigh, viewed from the side, is broad, with both upper and lower thigh well muscled, forming as nearly as possible a right angle. The upper thigh bone parallels the shoulder blade while the lower thigh bone parallels the upper arm. The metatarsus (the unit between the hock joint and the foot) is short, strong and tightly articulated. The dewclaws, if any, should be removed from the hind legs. Feet as in front.

Coat
The ideal dog has a double coat of medium length. The outer coat should be as dense as possible, hair straight, harsh and lying close to the body. A slightly wavy outer coat, often of wiry texture, is permissible. The head, including the inner ear and foreface, and the legs and paws are covered with short hair, and the neck with longer and thicker hair. The rear of the forelegs and hind legs has somewhat longer hair extending to the pastern and hock, respectively. Faults in coat include soft, silky, too long outer coat, woolly, curly, and open coat.

Color
The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified.

Gait
A German Shepherd Dog is a trotting dog, and its structure has been developed to meet the requirements of its work. General Impression-- The gait is outreaching, elastic, seemingly without effort, smooth and rhythmic, covering the maximum amount of ground with the minimum number of steps. At a walk it covers a great deal of ground, with long stride of both hind legs and forelegs. At a trot the dog covers still more ground with even longer stride, and moves powerfully but easily, with coordination and balance so that the gait appears to be the steady motion of a well-lubricated machine. The feet travel close to the ground on both forward reach and backward push. In order to achieve ideal movement of this kind, there must be good muscular development and ligamentation. The hindquarters deliver, through the back, a powerful forward thrust which slightly lifts the whole animal and drives the body forward. Reaching far under, and passing the imprint left by the front foot, the hind foot takes hold of the ground; then hock, stifle and upper thigh come into play and sweep back, the stroke of the hind leg finishing with the foot still close to the ground in a smooth follow-through. The overreach of the hindquarter usually necessitates one hind foot passing outside and the other hind foot passing inside the track of the forefeet, and such action is not faulty unless the locomotion is crabwise with the dog’s body sideways out of the normal straight line.

Transmission The typical smooth, flowing gait is maintained with great strength and firmness of back. The whole effort of the hindquarter is transmitted to the forequarter through the loin, back and withers. At full trot, the back must remain firm and level without sway, roll, whip or roach. Unlevel topline with withers lower than the hip is a fault. To compensate for the forward motion imparted by the hindquarters, the shoulder should open to its full extent. The forelegs should reach out close to the ground in a long stride in harmony with that of the hindquarters. The dog does not track on widely separated parallel lines, but brings the feet inward toward the middle line of the body when trotting, in order to maintain balance. The feet track closely but do not strike or cross over. Viewed from the front, the front legs function from the shoulder joint to the pad in a straight line. Viewed from the rear, the hind legs function from the hip joint to the pad in a straight line. Faults of gait, whether from front, rear or side, are to be considered very serious faults.

Disqualifications
Cropped or hanging ears.
Dogs with noses not predominantly black.
Undershot jaw.
Docked tail.
White dogs.
Any dog that attempts to bite the judge.

Approved February 11, 1978
Reformatted July 11, 1994


I highlighted the things that I did NOT see in the video. Those dogs were severly roached with their movement impaired. According to this standard, those dogs should have serious point faults, yet they win competition???

There may be hope... I went to a conformation show this spring and saw a nice solid sable male win... so working line dogs can enter and win shows.

I have never entered a conformation show, but is it possible to bring the breed standard to the judge's attention should your working line dog not place, and a banana back does? Are you allowed to educate the judge on structure?? It may not change the results, but educating the judges on interpretation of the standard may be the start of a change...

Wishful thinking?

--Kel

Please keep in mind that while the standard is written in english the breed club's interpretation of that standard weighs heavily on how judges are instructed to judge the breed. This is the judge's education booklet from the GSDCA.

http://www.gsdca.org/images/pdf_items/judges_seminar_booklet_0408.pdf

OK, Obviously I am kind of slow...

Nowhere in the booklet did it say extreme roaching is desired. Nor did it say that the dog's hocks should knock together when the animal moves or stands still. In fact, that would be a "serious fault" according to the training booklet. In the video I did not see a dog make anything even CLOSE to the illustration of the movement desired. None of the hind legs overreached the front.. I don't think they were capable of reaching that far forward with the hind legs.

SO, if interpretation is the problem, how does it get changed? The standard hasn't changed, yet the structure of the dog has radically changed.

It's not just the AKC, but the governing organizations of dog clubs need to figure out what their own standards mean. If the standard says that the back should be straight without sag or roach, then it should not have a sag or roach, right? That's like a huge DUH to me.... These dogs can barely move around in a show ring, I can't even imagine one trying to herd sheep....

Sigh. I have to feed my pack.

 Quote: kelly

OK, Obviously I am kind of slow...

Nowhere in the booklet did it say extreme roaching is desired. Nor did it say that the dog's hocks should knock together when the animal moves or stands still. In fact, that would be a "serious fault" according to the training booklet. In the video I did not see a dog make anything even CLOSE to the illustration of the movement desired. None of the hind legs overreached the front.. I don't think they were capable of reaching that far forward with the hind legs.

SO, if interpretation is the problem, how does it get changed? The standard hasn't changed, yet the structure of the dog has radically changed.

It's not just the AKC, but the governing organizations of dog clubs need to figure out what their own standards mean. If the standard says that the back should be straight without sag or roach, then it should not have a sag or roach, right? That's like a huge DUH to me.... These dogs can barely move around in a show ring, I can't even imagine one trying to herd sheep....

Sigh. I have to feed my pack.

OK, good. It's not just me. I didn't really want to chime in, because although I can clearly see that what was in that video obviously doesn't match those standards, I know nothing about AKC judging at all.

From what's been said in this debate, it's obviously a viscous circle of poor breeding being rewarded, and so on. What I don't understand, is how anyone can look at the breed standards, or the instructional booklet, and not straight up disqualify those dogs? Regardless of possible pressure on the judges, there's only so far you can stretch and interpretation!

Why has this style become popular? Is this a dumb question? What does anyone benefit from these crippled dogs? I am honestly asking here, not trying to be provocative.

Can these same "questionable" breeders not breed GSDs that fit the standard and still make as much $?

 Quote: phaedra rieff

 Quote: kelly

OK, Obviously I am kind of slow...

Nowhere in the booklet did it say extreme roaching is desired. Nor did it say that the dog's hocks should knock together when the animal moves or stands still. In fact, that would be a "serious fault" according to the training booklet. In the video I did not see a dog make anything even CLOSE to the illustration of the movement desired. None of the hind legs overreached the front.. I don't think they were capable of reaching that far forward with the hind legs.

SO, if interpretation is the problem, how does it get changed? The standard hasn't changed, yet the structure of the dog has radically changed.

It's not just the AKC, but the governing organizations of dog clubs need to figure out what their own standards mean. If the standard says that the back should be straight without sag or roach, then it should not have a sag or roach, right? That's like a huge DUH to me.... These dogs can barely move around in a show ring, I can't even imagine one trying to herd sheep....

Sigh. I have to feed my pack.

OK, good. It's not just me. I didn't really want to chime in, because although I can clearly see that what was in that video obviously doesn't match those standards, I know nothing about AKC judging at all.

From what's been said in this debate, it's obviously a viscous circle of poor breeding being rewarded, and so on. What I don't understand, is how anyone can look at the breed standards, or the instructional booklet, and not straight up disqualify those dogs? Regardless of possible pressure on the judges, there's only so far you can stretch and interpretation!

Why has this style become popular? Is this a dumb question? What does anyone benefit from these crippled dogs? I am honestly asking here, not trying to be provocative.

Can these same "questionable" breeders not breed GSDs that fit the standard and still make as much $?

I agree with these two posts...

If the guidelines do not promote/require these attributes - why are they awarded in the ring?

Many of you guys are far more experienced, better versed, more educated in this venue, but it is not hard for anyone to read the guidelines and see what is being awarded in the ring and wonder where in the heck did things go so wrong?

hi all, i usually don't post as i unintentionally upset people by saying stupid things. i do this all the time in real life as well. this thread & videos really shocked me as did the puppy mill video. i did not know things were this bad.
i have one simple question; the words "breed standard" gets used an awful lot to justify certain actions; i have read several breed standards before posting this and everyone included a statement on temprement. in fact all gave about equal space to confirmation and other non-mecahnical features of the breeds. the question is if breed asscocaitons and organisations use breed standards as their main justification why do they clearly ignore evry part of the standard except the conformation section.

a pilot can not get a licence if they pass take-off section of the course (no matter how good they can do it)and fail the landing section. so how can a dog be a champion if they only have been tested in one aspect of the standard?? - saying it too hard to test the other aspects is not good enough - the standard is the standard.

This isssue is clearly the responsibilty of the organisation/s issuing titles AKC/UKC etc, so they ARE directly accountable and should be judged as such.

i undertsand the old-timers that say its performance not papers that inform your breeding choices.

secondly i was discussing hip scores with a breeder who breeds strictly for her own contracting business, herding other people's cattle that they can't get in themselves. and she is quite happy to knowingly breed a dog with known bad hips that can do the work well for 5 years than breed a perfect or good score dog that cant do the work very well. interesting logic from one who's livelyhood and income depends directly on her dogs ability to work. of course the prefernce is to have a dog good in both.

cheers

cheers