Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

... Connie, who has PMed me a zillion times ....

And not in the usual back-and-forth way, either. Just sat down one boring afternoon and bombarded Betty with a zillion PMs!

I understand she's dropping her internet provider.

Connie, you're welcome to bombard me with PM's anytime!!!

Okay gang I feel kinda responsible for this confusion(?), the self questioning and perhaps some angst among ya'll with my misuse or misstatement or brain fart in throwing out the term hand shy when what I really meant was shy to hand, and even then it appears I may have jumped ahead of myself in my critique of a dogs reactions in another thread. But it seems to have caused some confusion so I'll try to delineate the two terms as well as show the differences between those terms and a dog that just doesn't like to be pet. At least imho.
Anyone want to wish me luck at this?

Okay, stiffening myself up for this, here goes.
Hand shy; A dog that's been obviously mishandled and perhaps even abused. But certainly misread and poorly handled. The most heart rendering example I can think of is the dog that genuinely wants to be with people but is actually afraid to be touched because the only time he really remembers about being touched it's been unpleasant. He never seems to know what the hand coming toward him holds.
Some dogs react aggressively, some dogs react submissively. But they all hold that one common trait, the hands are to be avoided if possible.
As a vet Betty I'm sure you're well familiar with the signs.

Then we have the dogs that are shy to hand.
Certainly very much so a different level of mishandling, and I iterate, very much so. But still......
Probably much more common.
They are the dogs that comes (perhaps) readily but not within or not in reach of the handler. I liken that kind of behavior definitely as handler error.
Now it may be as mundane as one incidence of a harsh correction out of frustration of having to catch or rescue the pup as a mere baby, but instead of changing tone or language the animal is always put through the same scenario time after time after time.
So the result is always the same.
I liken it to the forced retrieve, yeah the dog goes through the motions but there's something definitely missing. And if the dog actually has to be put in hand, the dog would not be willing or within reach for that matter.
As an example where's Strider (the black one) in the early stages of recall training;
Today he looks very like that no matter the why's or the why fores. The finish looks much like this no matter:
And he has no issues with me putting a lead on or taking hold of his collar.
He is not 'shy to hand' he comes readily to my side. To that I'm proud to say neither have any of my last 4 or 5 dogs.
He or they does/did not avoid my confinement in their actions whatever they think they wanted to do.
Once again Betty I'm surprised as a vet you don't recognize a relationship between owner and dog as pronounced as shy to hand.

Now we have the people freaking because their dog plays the keep away catch me if you can game.
Dogs love these kind of games and I play these kind of games with my dogs all the time......but when I run out of breath or tire of the game.....here.....it's time to: play at something else.
But even though my oldest is 5 now(!!? where does the time go?) I still play the chase me, I'll chase you down game.
However I've yet to expeirence any 'shy of hand' problems. Both of them are easily (if not happily) taken to under direct (leash) control if need be.

At 7 or 8 months old I can understand a dog not 'hearing' you. What I don't understand is the dog avoiding you.

If any of that makes any sense please let me know.

Randy

Randy, you are great. Beautiful dogs, and a terrific post.
My dog is hand shy. His nature is "reactive" "high drive" "timid". The smartest dog I ever saw. Serious and loyal. He always comes when I call.He sits proud.
Ringworm on the face for a month was unlucky . Poking at the face twice a day tested leadership, his trust. A lesion between his nose and eye, lot of staring close to the eye. Over a month of that. He began warning me off, I kept doing it. He decided he was sick of it, we had a little crisis, but we are working it out. The ringworm is gone, thank heavens.
As a dog owner, I'm more familiar with dumb obese hounds and setters. As a vet, Iwas pretty good with cows. I have a cow dog to help me now, and we are TOGETHER.
I was so glad to have your post to think about, the football is killing me.

Randy,

Wish you luck for what; that was a perfect post and I enjoyed the graphics, both of your dogs are gorgeous.

I agree with you on both your definitions of "hand shy" and "shy to hand".

For shy to hand I don't necessarily agree that the dog does not want to be with the handler and maybe even the opposite....

At around a year old I ran into this situation with Thor; so back on the long line he went, but then as I would be ending our hike he would roll on top of his leash or refuse to get in or out of the car. Handler error YES! But a behavior which only occurred on the days I was working.

Luckily I made the connection pretty quickly and revamped my morning routine so I was not as predictable. A few simple changes such as putting him in the car to wait every morning while I got myself and the kids ready so he didn't see me iron my uniform or pack a lunch or I'm sure a million other indicators I was giving to what the day held for him. I also changed our itinerary to what errands I ran and where we would go to hike and train, and lo and behold the behavior ceased.

Some might say he was being an adolescent brat but I liked to think of it as him developing some high functioning problem solving skills.

I think people should not generalize when they"assume" someone should know something. Yes, Betty is a vet, and yes, she is a dog owner, but she is not a dog vet! Big difference - just like in this hand shy - shy to hand thread. Betty works on farm animals, mostly dairy cattle. She does not work in an office and see pets all day - therefore, she would not have the experience you assume she has being a vet. She is a very good vet and is very helpful on here with everyone's questions, but her best work is done pulling calves when it's 50 below outside.

I can totally understand the dog doing the avoidance issue and not wanting to be handled after having someone sticking swabs into wounds cleaning them and medicating them day after day. To the dog it was unpleasant, maybe slightly painful, etc. Only the dog could tell you what was going thru his head. Cowdogs are tough - they can get kicked in the head by a cow and get right back up to run the herd into a pen. So this may be the total nature of the issue.

I got my mal from a breeder at a year old. He told me you couldn't catch the dog, he wouldn't let you get close enough. I'm sure it was because everytime this guy caught him was to lock him up or punish him. You can not step over him or raise your legs near him - probably from being kicked since he wouldn't let the guy catch him. I have used Cindy's video of handling the collar and marking it and am making slow progress. In obedience, I am just now being able to walk around him on a sit or down stay but can not step over him. I have had him since November. He loves to go with me in the truck, gets so excited to see me when I get home and will come to me on his own accord but does not want me reaching for him or his collar.

Give me another year and maybe we'll be on the normal path.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I understand she's dropping her internet provider.

The joke didn't sink in at first. Now I'm paying for Betty's Internet because I was afraid she was really dropping it, and I didn't want her to leave.

I would also hate to lose Dr. Betty, who has always made it clear that she's a large animal vet. Retired.