Dave, I apologize for any offence caused and certainly if I misunderstood the issue of CKC registration of prospective pups. I certainly did not intend any.

You clearly have lots of passion for your dogs and lots of enthusiasm for setting up a business based on your dogs. I wish you every success in your endeavours and would not have responded to your thread if this were otherwise.

My comments were made because I personally found elements of inconsistency in the arguments you presented regarding breeding.

If you are setting up a business of course you want it to be successful....and seeking input and opinions on any early business venture is quite difficult to do, so I am very sorry if this opportunity to clarify your ideas and your website on this forum has inadvertently opened doors to comments that you might rather not have had. I admire your persistence and passion which is why I spoke about "learning by doing" in an earlier post.

At the end of the day, no-one wants to see anything but the most successful outcomes for your ideas.

 Quote:

I really did not want to get into ethics and why's, those are not opinions on the site
in my OPINION I'm doing better than the average

To be honest Dave,from your website, I'm not seeing what gives you this opinion.

What do you know about health problems in Mastiffs?
Mastiff health
I don't see anything on your website.

 Quote:

A great home will be responsible for most aspects in a future Champions life and mutually beneficial obligations, if you are interested please inquire

How are you going to help with that? You don't believe in titles.
Most pedigree's go back to well known dogs at some point, but not all the progeny carry what made those dogs what they were, except of course, in the eyes of their owner and the friends and family members that love petting them. Buying and/or importing dogs from well known kennels and then doing nothing but breeding them without knowing what that particular dog really has, is where "Lines" die.
My question

 Quote:

Have you done anything in the venues listed? Other than having an awesome companion and some weight pulling on your property?

Dave's reply on his site

 Quote:

We have not competed in anything sanctioned. We are always striving to do better for our dogs, to have ballanced dogs. We feel we have done good for our dogs, not just token titles. Too many people show only 1 of 6 dogs they own and coast on that one accomplishment.
The activities we show they are good at says more for their abilities than someone willing to go to enough shows to place.
although our pups will be known

You can be dismissive of it if you want Dave, but for someone just starting out, showing or training and then having it judged by others teaches you a lot about your dogs. 200lbs of health and temperament problems will have your pups known alright.

Dave, you asked!

I'd grab these responses and run with them instead of becoming defensive.

 Quote: Lisabet Measures

My comments were made because I personally found elements of inconsistency in the arguments you presented regarding breeding.

At the end of the day, no-one wants to see anything but the most successful outcomes for your ideas.

Ditto!

FWIW, What I'm seeing on the site is a love for the dogs you own and a desire to do right by them. What I'm not yet seeing is a good indepth understanding of the breed or reason for breeding. Not saying that you don't have one, just that I'm not seeing it on the site.

I'd want to see the joint/health checks done on the parents.

Working breeds should have a minimum working standard that they're bred to. On any dog I'd want to see a minimum level of some type of training. Like at least passing a CGC or equivalent (usually much more)

I agree that titles certainly aren't everything, but IMO any breeder should have training experience to know that the dog that they're breeding is worth breeding (temperament wise as much as anything - getting a dog out and about really helps show the temperament of the dog)

If you want to showcase what you do with your dogs outside of formal training/competition, use videos on your site. Train your dogs really well in carting then explain how it can be used, show off your dogs skills, etc.

Hi Dave!!

You certainly do have nice looking girls!! I have a friend that bred the Old English Mastiffs for a few years, and I absolutely loved her dogs.

Your site does need some stuff added. As a potential buyer, I would want to see some health stuff. Besides the fact that you feed raw, I would want to see where you stand on vaccines, hip/elbow xrays of the parents, and maybe a copy of your health guarantee.

What is your return/ replacement policy? What will you do if my male pup has only one testicle, if my 2 year old female that I want to breed OFAs dysplastic, or if my 12 month old male kills the family cat? These are things that very well could come up as you continue breeding and you need to have some answers... and yes, these are things I have seen addressed on other breeders' websites....

Training- while you don't abide by titles, what is your experience in training? How long have you had this breed? Did you have a different breed before and what was your experience with them? I feel, as a potential buyer, that the breeder's experience plays a pretty big part in whether or not I want to get a dog from them. You say you want to place the puppies in the perfect homes, but what in your experience gives you the knowledge to pick the perfect agility dog for me out of the litter? Or the potential therapy dog? The potential AKC OB champion? You get where I am going here? I worked for years at Leerburg, and I remember Ed and Cindy AGONIZING over puppy placements- even with their vast experience. It's not that easy to do.... ask any breeder.

You are going to start the pups with Marker Training- what else are you going to do training wise? Will they be crate trained? Will they ride in a vehicle quietly? Will they be socialized with other people/ animals and to what degree? Will they have been exposed to small children? Will they be living in the house with you or in a kennel? These are things that a potential buyer will want to know... and they are easy enough to address on your website.

AND... what are you trying to improve in the breed by breeding your girls? I am not a fan of breeding dogs just because they are "nice" dogs. I want to be able to visualize the PERFECT dog that you are breeding to produce... most breeders have an ideal dog in their minds that they are striving for. Are you breeding to improve temperament? How will your dogs do that? Are you breeding for increased working ability? How will your dogs do that? Again, do you get where I am going here?

Your philosphy on breeding, how you showcase your dogs, how you keep your dogs happy and healthy - these are all things that will determine whether or not potential buyers want to add your kennel to their potential puppy list. In most cases, your website is going to be the first contact anyone has with you, your kennel, and your dogs. Make it count- get as much on there as you can.

--Kelly

My sole consideration when looking for a pup was the best possible health stats going back 3 generations minimum, temperament, soundness, and with all the well documented common inherited diseases, HD, ED, displaysia, wobblers, entropian, ectropian, being shown as tested for in the sire/dam line, and while my understanding it isn't genetic, my biggest bogey man, bloat.

Any data you can provide on your website supporting the testing of these (sadly well documented health issues in mollosers), in your dogs will not only reassure the prospective buyer, but will give you some insight into that prospective owner of your pups if they DON'T ask for that data.

I would have lost sleep and tortured myself senseless if I had of bred Sugar, and would be hoping and praying the homes the pups had gone to were safe and secure, and that the new owners weren't just looking for cash cows to breed on, I have had first hand stories of breeders who have thought the person was being honest about their intentions toward the pup, only for them to blunder into breeding before the bitch had reached maturity, often under the year old.

That was a responsibility I wasn't prepared to risk, I don't envy you the task!

Dave,
this is just my opinion, but I did show Old English Mastiffs for several years, so I am speaking from someone that knows a bit about the breed - I would not be using the dog's weight as a selling point, that will brand you as a beginner with the breed and it'd be best to avoid that.

I apologize for my kinda doubled passive agressive post, I thought I had closed that window. post#352631

The standards of dog ownership are high on this site, thats why I asked for opinions, without meaning to, I did open myself up for criticism. Justifiably so, I understand

I'm not out to do anything wrong or mislead people,

my dogs are not lacking in their needs, and I for sure am not doing this for money.

since I did (inadvertently)ask for all the many questions, I will be honest, just like I asked for everyone to be with me.

Its, gonna take a while, and I'm going to respond to each post individually for clarity.



Edited by Dave Owen (01/02/2012 07:16 PM)
Edit reason: post#352631

 Quote: Lisabet Measures

#1Dave, I apologize for any offence caused and certainly if I misunderstood the issue of CKC registration of prospective pups. I certainly did not intend any.

#2You clearly have lots of passion for your dogs and lots of enthusiasm for setting up a business based on your dogs. I wish you every success in your endeavours and would not have responded to your thread if this were otherwise.

#3My comments were made because I personally found elements of inconsistency in the arguments you presented regarding breeding.

#4If you are setting up a business of course you want it to be successful....and seeking input and opinions on any early business venture is quite difficult to do, so I am very sorry if this opportunity to clarify your ideas and your website on this forum has inadvertently opened doors to comments that you might rather not have had. I admire your persistence and passion which is why I spoke about "learning by doing" in an earlier post.

#5At the end of the day, no-one wants to see anything but the most successful outcomes for your ideas.

#1 thank you, I can admit I got defensive

#2 Yes I do, and thank you

#3 if you would not mind,Please PM me the details, I'm unable to see where

#4 I do not look at it as a business as my(our) reasons are not for money, more a passionate endevor that will require me to be able to place the pups I do not keep, hence the web site, and again thank you for for understanding my passion

#5 as do I ...thanks....Dave

 Quote: steve strom

#1

 Quote:

I really did not want to get into ethics and why's, those are not opinions on the site
in my OPINION I'm doing better than the average

To be honest Dave,from your website, I'm not seeing what gives you this opinion.

#1A What do you know about health problems in Mastiffs?
Mastiff health
I don't see anything on your website.

#2

 Quote:

A great home will be responsible for most aspects in a future Champions life and mutually beneficial obligations, if you are interested please inquire

How are you going to help with that? You don't believe in titles.
Most pedigree's go back to well known dogs at some point, but not all the progeny carry what made those dogs what they were, except of course, in the eyes of their owner and the friends and family members that love petting them.

#2ABuying and/or importing dogs from well known kennels and then doing nothing but breeding them without knowing what that particular dog really has, is where "Lines" die.

#3 My question

 Quote:

Have you done anything in the venues listed? Other than having an awesome companion and some weight pulling on your property?

Dave's reply on his site

 Quote:

We have not competed in anything sanctioned. We are always striving to do better for our dogs, to have ballanced dogs. We feel we have done good for our dogs, not just token titles. Too many people show only 1 of 6 dogs they own and coast on that one accomplishment.
The activities we show they are good at says more for their abilities than someone willing to go to enough shows to place.
although our pups will be known

You can be dismissive of it if you want Dave, but for someone just starting out, showing or training and then having it judged by others teaches you a lot about your dogs.
#3A 200lbs of health and temperament problems will have your pups known alright.

#1 Although I;m adding new pages, My opinion is based on my view of accomplishment (and unfortunately by comparision to alot of what I've seen and been told ),which obviously differ from yours, your right and potential puppy owners too... I appreciate you being so straight foward

I can honestly say my dogs best interests are at heart

I can honestly say I'm learning and implimenting what I feel is the best way to feed my dogs, I can honestly say I'm learning and implimenting what I feel is the best way to train my dogs

I can honestly say I'm contantly learning and implimenting what I feel is the best way to interact with my dogs, be it my self taught recreational sleding, going for a walk doing a few recalls, or just sitting around

#1A I will have a page ........my intentions were to talk with potential puppy owners, see what they knew, then talk about which blanks I can fill in....having looked into the breed before deciding to purchase I became familiar with the most commonly tested for conditions. Once I decided to purchase(add a mastiff to my life) I looked into alot more before deciding where to purchase.

The link you gave is good, although aware it was possible untill now had not considered testing, the evidence showed a large enough population affected

#2 I never said I did not belive in titles, in fact we plan on acheving quite a few on each pup, I questioned the validy of token show titles, not some one who is pationate about showing, but what I have seen lots "Too many people show only 1 of 6 dogs they own and coast on that one accomplishment."

#2A nothing but breeding would mean I should be on each girls 3rd litter without having even given them a chance to mature.
this COULD be their first,
IMHO knowing what that particular dog really has has taken me a while, I just have different standards than you, sorry
I for sure have no desire to detract from any lines

#3 I gave an HONEST answer I did not feel I was dismissive of it- , Please tell me if it is misleading

" showing or training and then having it judged by others teaches you a lot about your dogs." I agree

#3A it sure would, I feel I have proven by my standards to ensure great genitics and IMHO proper temperment,

just as you have, My standards will be jugded by potential puppy owners
I will present myself honestly

most of your questions will be asked by potential puppy owners
Have I answered your questions? I am happy to further discuss