Quote: Connie Sutherland

Welcome!

Quick notes:

This is a description of marker training gone awry:

The trouble with clicker-training is that Mondo immediately figured out how to game that system. For example, he gets one of my shoes and brings it to me, then puts his mouth on it like he's going to chew it, looking at me with puppy-dog eyes, saying, "See what a bad boy I am? You better give me a treat to stop me!"

I'm posting this observation because I don't want readers to see it and think that properly done marker work will be manipulated this way by a smart dog; it won't. ;

There are far more important issues in your O.P. I just don't want anyone to give you desensitizing or focus instructions and say "using marker training" until we clear up what has gone wrong with your marker work. (Sounds like rewards morphed into bribes.)

Thanks; this is good to know. I had a feeling that I'm not doing it quite right. But then again I thought that was part of the process, that the dog would try to think of things to do.

It's the same with jumping on the counter. With only marker training, it made him do it more, because I can't ignore the behavior when he's sticking his nose in my dinner, so I have to say "Down", then click-treat. So...I trained him to jump on the counter, basically, until I just started telling him "OFF!" when he does it.

How do you avoid what I'm describing? He does it with a lot of things--threatening to use a cat as a chew-toy is a favorite. Now, he'll sometimes just open his mouth up right by my most tolerant cat, then look at me, so I can tell him to stop. (The cat doens't help the situation because he encourages it, having been raised by dogs, til he gets pissed and attaches himself to Mondo's face with his claws, and then I'm unhooking him and telling them to both knock it off before Fox is betten in half.)

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I do just want to say that this:

"OK, this is the issue: he guards. When he guards, he becomes FEROCIOUS. He turns into a different dog, growling and snarling and lunging and snapping, actually "cornering" people in the middle of the yard, because they are too scared to move."

... should never be allowed to happen. Why is the dog loose in an area where people can enter? This cannot be allowed. This sets humans up for injury and the dog for PTS. The point is too crucial to tiptoe around it.

Because I was a completely stupid idiot, and put him with my extremely gentle older dogs in a yard with an underground fence, thinking he would learn from them that the UPS man and the mailman and the other treat-throwing delivery people are friends. It was probably lost in the wall of words I wrote, but after I figured out that he was dangerous, I built a high fence around a big part of my yard, with a dog door into the garage, and he cannot get to people anymore.

I want to learn to control him in case of emergency; like, if he slips out the door or something. I'm not planning on him ever being able to get to anybody again. I'm kind of horrified by my carelessness, and just glad nothing terrible happened, except possibly to my and a UPS man's underwear. I'm got a lot smarter all of a sudden; nothing like a near-slaughter in your front yard to inspire you to try and fix things. And, ultimately, it's been really fun, learning all this stuff. (I doubt the UPS man feels the same; he knows the dogs are put up now, but he comes in from the woods, not the street, and sneaks up and throws the box and books.)

 Quote: Tresa Hendrix

Ditto on the bribe thing and allowing him loose with helpless guests!

Don't worry, I'm not going to let him get to people. I'll show you a picture of the fence when I get home.

I don't know the difference between bribing and what I'm supposed to be doing, I guess.

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I had a Dutch Shepherd rescue named Ali and she was a lot like your dog. VERY aggressive towards people (and objects) she deemed weird. It was fear based but no doubt she would bite in an instant or turn and flee and hit the end of the leash. Unfortunately for us I was not done working on desensitizing her when she was killed by an irresponsible vet.

Even if I got her to do well for a while I would NEVER have her off leash around guests for their sake. She was never off leash period, always used a long line on her.

The reason Mondo is worse with the yelling is it just pumps up his adrenaline even more...esp fear based aggression. My chow mix was a fearful dog and was VERY aggressive (in display only) at the door. Ignorantly we used to yell at her to shut-up but it only made her worse.

Good luck and you'll get a lot of help here.

Thanks! How do you tell fear-aggression from territorial? Mondo does not back down or away, and it escalated very quickly into just cornering the person with barking to lunging. I just don't know. I thought it was fear at first, but why would he avoid letting me catch him if he's scared? He had plenty of space to run away, he's never been cornered himself--he's done the cornering.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Also to the O.P., after you look at some of the threads on desensitizing, we'll be happy to answer any/all questions and also help work out how the marker training got off on the wrong foot.

Thanks! I'll do that right away, and I look forward to figuring out what the heck I'm doing wrong. Dogs are so flexible, I guess it's easy to "train" them sometimes even if you are totally screwing it up, but then it doesn't always turn out the way you planned.

Thanks again for all the help from everybody.

Michael Ellis discusses why NOT to use a prong collar on a fearful-aggressive dog.

http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php?id=818&utm_source=nlist&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=12122011

 Quote: Jenny Arntzen

Michael Ellis discusses why NOT to use a prong collar on a fearful-aggressive dog.


http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php?id=818&utm_source=nlist&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=12122011

OK, I won't do anything until I've fully investigated this and probably run it by you guys first. (So much to learn! Then you have to put it into practice. Seems like a good hobby.)


Here's Mondo's nice fence, so people won't think I'm still incredibly irresponsible. He doesn't try to get out. He even stuck very close to the house when I was using the underground fence around about an acre. Lol he doesn't look that bad, does he? One of his first potential victims said, "He looks a lot bigger when he's barking at you."

I owned a territorial ferocious beast chesapeake. She was very serious.
If you can get a handle on these serious dogs, they can become the absolute best IMO

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

Thanks! How do you tell fear-aggression from territorial? Mondo does not back down or away, and it escalated very quickly into just cornering the person with barking to lunging. I just don't know. I thought it was fear at first, but why would he avoid letting me catch him if he's scared? He had plenty of space to run away, he's never been cornered himself--he's done the cornering.

This is my opinion and this is how I train my dogs. See if it makes sense.
Aggression is aggression once it has manifested itself. The reason for it (fear/dominance/defense etc) is very important before it manifests itself, so that we can control and manipulate the environment to prevent the incident from cropping up.

But once the dog acts aggressively AFTER you ask him to knock it off, it has to be dealt with.

In my opinion, the problem with us removing the dog from the environment that stimulated him is exactly what the dog wants. He acted aggressively because he did not like some thing he heard, saw, smelt or felt. By removing the stimulating factor (either by removing the dog or the stimulant) we do exactly what the dog wants. i.e. to make the stimulant go away. That is what the dog was trying to do in the first place.

I personally do not subscribe to marker training away the aggression ONCE THE AGGRESSION HAS CROPPED UP. I am all for marker training and desensitization as long the dog is sub threshold. But once it gets aggressive(with out sanction), I will correct it (for a mistake I made by moving too near to the stimulant too soon) even though it was not the dog's fault. But I will learn and re calibrate his threshold and work below that.

But any sort of aggression displayed when I am around that was not sanctioned by me will be corrected. How can I move sub threshold when a stranger approaches me? I can't ask him to go away. I cant turn back and walk away .. may be I want to get to my house because it is going to rain. The dog has to be taught to deal with the situation. I agree that some dogs cannot/will not cope with the situation no matter what. But this may be a very small percentage. These small percentage of dogs will be a life long problem and will cripple their and their master's freedom of movement for the rest of their lives.

If I am taking them on a walk, will use a prong + leash or a flat collar + leash to give them a correction. If they are home and running about I will throw their collar at them or their leash at them when they are home and do not have a collar on. I never use E-collar for any of this because i want my dogs to know that I am ANGRY at them for acting up. E-collar is too clinical and removes me from the picture.

Pretty soon , they figure out that acting aggressive with out sanction is what makes me ANGRY ( again using a human term). So they figure out that the cue for them to knock it off is not when I appear on the scene but when they do not comply when I say "Good boy, now come back to me" .

I may have administered hardly 4 or 5 corrections in the past 2 years of my dog's life.

The example I use is the USA. When the US ambassador goes to a country and has friendly discussions, the host country knows that the ambassador has the backing of the 5th fleet behind him. It does not mean that the US ambassador constantly brings up the fact that he has a battle group with aircraft carrier stationed in the persian gulf.

My dogs similarly understand that I do not make empty threats.


Of course all this will never work if your dog is a very fearful dog. Any pressure on a fearful dog will make him more fearful and fear aggressive. But a fear aggressive dog will cower and bare it's front teeth and tuck his tail. So you need to read your dog too.

Quote
"He puts his bck up against me and did his mean dog thing".

"Trying to get behind the guy".

"talking calmly to him".


This is a stress/fear biter. Doesn't mean he wouldn't bite. He will but it's initially going to be someone that runs from him or corners him.
"Talking calmly to him" during these bouts can very well be perceived by the dog as praise for his crap.

As Connie mentioned, he needs desensitization exercises for the aggression. Correction at this point will probably create stress and that will just boost the aggression.
Look at the aggression as a very big distraction to his OB.
OB train (markers)in a very calm environment till it's solid and add those distractions in small bits at a time. THEN when you need corrections it's for disobedience of your command and not for the aggression. The stress created buy the aggression is then avoided.

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

Don't worry, I'm not going to let him get to people. I'll show you a picture of the fence when I get home.

Cool, I wish I had a 6 foot fence. No need to beat yourself up, you're doing the right thing by coming here for advice.

Before I forget, let me mention you posted on a previous page about testing your dog once trained by letting him loose. No reason to ever try that. Bad enough if its accidental. You can get lucky and your dog will forget he's not on leash, but don't count on it. A long line is your friend.

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Thanks! How do you tell fear-aggression from territorial?

Logan my dutchie, is not very territorial, he'll let the mailman walk past the gate, he let a dog in our yard one day...the dog was very submissive and Logan played with him. But, as far as defense goes, he serious as hell, proud posture, head up, ears back, tail bent, body oriented forward to lunge (feet under hips/waist). I live in a creepy place and there a creepy people we pass on walks. I don't let him do that (unless they bother me LOL). "what is is?"

Now fear is another thing...take Sport my chow mix for example. She would jump to the top of the door growling and barking, her tail was raised, all hair standing viscous you'd think she would attack....grab her collar and let the person in...then she would "woof" and nervously cautiously sniff them. When confronted, she was a wimp and would flee if pressed.

Watch an ankle-biter in progress, they charge up and stop, barking in a frenzy. Their body language is typically a rounded back, legs braced to back up or turn...etc. But fear doesn't mean they won't bite...dogs like that I call bite-and-runs LOL

I strongly feel that the electric fence is what made your dog so fearful of people in the yard. But you can help him by correctly using markers to desensitize him.

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Mondo does not back down or away, and it escalated very quickly into just cornering the person with barking to lunging.

The person backed away as he barked and lunged...typical.

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I just don't know. I thought it was fear at first, but why would he avoid letting me catch him if he's scared?

Good question, Sport did this too, once she got after the mailman and my mom couldn't catch her, every time he moved she headed him off but dodged my mom. She had NO confidence in my mom as a leader so she ran. You want you dog to be confident in you so they feel safe.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Quote
"He puts his bck up against me and did his mean dog thing".

"Trying to get behind the guy".

"talking calmly to him".


This is a stress/fear biter. Doesn't mean he wouldn't bite. He will but it's initially going to be someone that runs from him or corners him.
"Talking calmly to him" during these bouts can very well be perceived by the dog as praise for his crap.

.... he needs desensitization exercises for the aggression. Correction at this point will probably create stress and that will just boost the aggression.
Look at the aggression as a very big distraction to his OB.
OB train (markers)in a very calm environment till it's solid and add those distractions in small bits at a time. THEN when you need corrections it's for disobedience of your command and not for the aggression. The stress created buy the aggression is then avoided.

This in a nutshell is what you're going to find instructions for in the desensitizing threads.