Michel,

Touch your dog. Look it in the eye and praise it profusely. Bond.

I'd lay off the bike until I got back the happy relationship. Work gently with the dog. Patience. Corrections, in my experience, by too many people are too harsh, ill timed, and misused. A correction is just enough to refocus the dog. Just a touch.

You bond with the dog by every now and then just touching the dog randomly.

One of my dogs will wander over and just want to be touched or scratched as a kind of connecting moment. Not needy, just a kind of bonding second. Makes me feel good. A tactile reward for a solid relationship with the dog.

A tether is a good idea unless you use it like a ball and chain and drag the dog around or jerk it all the time. A tether should be a subtle link between you and the dog, in my opinion, that reinforces a relationship. It supplements voice and gesture commands. Stand, Come. we're going into the other room. You still have to cue the dog as to what you intend.

Leadership isn't based on power, and corrections shouldn't be revenge. If you want a relationship with your dog you have to balance your status as leader with kindness and nurturing. The person is supposed to be smarter than the dog.

Read the dog. If it looks like it could use a bonding moment, pet it and make a happy moment. Let the dog feel your protection as leader. Boy, does that sound sappy.

Anyway, genuine praise is the key to genuine bonding, in my opinion. Patience and gentle working will pay off much better than constant corrections.

My four GSDs have four different personalities. If I took a one size fits all training approach I'd be a frustrated and vengeful dog owner. I would have a favorite and a pack ranking from favorite to least favorite and that would lead to a miserable pack set of relationships.

Michel, you are supposed to enjoy your dog and take pride in your dog. You have to start out wanting to enjoy your dog and be willing to bond with the dog. Touch the dog. Hug the dog. Praise for small victories. Keep your attitude to yourself when there are steps back in the training process. Train in the moment for the dog you want. Forget the past.

I type fast, so my epistles are long and tedious.

Mike

Well said Mike.

Sappy or not, it's also very much the basis of my leadership.

Something has gone wrong and I don't think it was one isolated incident. Much like earning trust, mistrust is also earned, from one encounter to the next.

I don't think this developed overnight, regardless of when the first outwardly aggressive gesture appeared.

And like all relationships where trust has been lost, it takes work to get them back. A consistent, desired approach that proves, over time, that the offender has changed his ways.

I would take heed of every word Mike has said. You can change this. Hug your dog Michel.

Mike, not to disagree with you....because I always think your advice is spot on...so lets call this just a question..lol

It seems to me that right now the dog feels that even eye contact for too long is a threat.

In my mind this dog is too fearful for direct eye contact from anyone right now. Especially when i read that even using a high pitched voice caused the dog to go into avoidance.

to the OP....please please please make sure you aren't overcorrecting this dog. It is apparent that this is where the whole problem began and one bad ill timed correction on your part will set you back 20 steps when you just gained 2.

Your sister may have only been alone with the dog for 3 minutes but i, connie and others are telling you something happened in those 3 minutes. One bad hard correction is sometimes all it takes and it seems like your sister might've tried to take matters into her own hands and "show" your dog who's boss when he tried to hightail it back home. Something had to happen.

Michel what happens if you get down on the dogs level? Like sit on the floor to watch tv or something like that? Does the dog approach you then? Not looking at him or trying to entice him over...just sit on the floor and look at the tv or read a book.

I just want to encourage you, with change you CAN come out the other side with a dog that loves you and that you are proud of.

I did the aloof bit for 2 wks. Not mean, no corrections, but my guy had to suck up for even a look from me. Working at my desk, my attitude was, "Is there a dog here? I don't see any dog." And I was extremely careful with "touch" because in discussions with knowing Forum members it became clear that my guy really didn't like to be touched so much. When I did touch him it was on the chest only and not looming over him. . No big excitement when we would greet after a time apart. HE'S the one whose supposed to be excited, if I'm excited I'm acting like I'm a puppy and he's the grown-up.
Outside he'd be leashed and "along for the ride". Occasionally I'd put my hand down with a delicious treat in it. No touch, no sweet talk. THe first few days I didn't even feed him except from my hand. I didn't touch him, just handed him food.
After about 2 wks of this he was different. Now he's great. Most of the changes were mine, upping the leadership, down with praise for nothing, down with "nitpicking" corrections. I quit doing things he didn't like and he quit doing things I didn't like. I made our relationship "professional", and it has grown.
IMO you just can't treat these working dogs like a hound or a setter or a spaniel, they don't get it, they don't turn out the way you want with that handling.A working dog is like the plumber, the electrician, in your world to do a job .
Do you get all sweet when the electrician comes to fix something? If you did he'd just think you were some sort of weird-o. He might even punch you in the nose. But, a professional who works for you can become your great friend, your greatest friend.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

I just want to encourage you, with change you CAN come out the other side with a dog that loves you and that you are proud of..............

..........After about 2 wks of this he was different. Now he's great. Most of the changes were mine, upping the leadership, down with praise for nothing, down with "nitpicking" corrections. I quit doing things he didn't like and he quit doing things I didn't like. I made our relationship "professional", and it has grown.
IMO you just can't treat these working dogs like a hound or a setter or a spaniel, they don't get it, they don't turn out the way you want with that handling.

 Quote: Mike Arnold

You have to start out wanting to enjoy your dog and be willing to bond with the dog. Touch the dog. Hug the dog.

I realized today: Karly freaks out to the words "hey" or "hello", "goodmorning".
If he comes close to me to sniff me and i just open my mouth very happily, he is startled and backs away then turns and leave.
I need to have a treat or a toy or else he wouldnt come close.

I ve been giving him treats for showing initiative in following me.

Touching karly, let alone hugging him IMO is gonna take some time. Believe me, i m heartbroken and wouldnt want more than to hug the shit out of him. we used to be soo tight.

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

Your sister may have only been alone with the dog for 3 minutes but i, connie and others are telling you something happened in those 3 minutes. One bad hard correction is sometimes all it takes and it seems like your sister might've tried to take matters into her own hands and "show" your dog who's boss when he tried to hightail it back home. Something had to happen.

i just got new info. apparently karly was panicking when sis was walking him.
XXX my mom tried to "get him used to her" and started hiding from him 2-3 times. (very wrong IMO since she s never taken him out). He panicked when he lost her.

after he had done his business, mom left for home and it took 2mins for karly to realize that she was gone. he freaked out completely and started dragging sis very hardly back home. sis just went with it and was lead back home. (prong collar)

*side note: i had taken him that day to the vet to deworm him. he had a rash on his ear a couple of days back and i was given a medicine that cleared it directly.

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

Michel what happens if you get down on the dogs level? Like sit on the floor to watch tv or something like that? Does the dog approach you then? Not looking at him or trying to entice him over...just sit on the floor and look at the tv or read a book.

i tried going down to his level, nothing really happens. if i dont have a treat of a toy in my hand he wouldnt approach me.

but i ll try to watch tv sitting on the ground and see what happens.

I m just curious to see if he'll approach of his own accord if you aren't standing up.

Im not saying you should be sitting on the floor whenever you want to socialize with the dog. but im curious to see if & how he approaches.

Yikes, you didn't mention the prong collar before.
They are an awesome tool in the hands of someone that knows how to use them. Does your sister have experience with them?

XXX

ok sitting down was fine. he was more confident in approaching. i gave him treats and petted him as he was eating them.
then he went and got a toy. i made him sit and then we played. with high energy.

i tried to touch him as we were playing and it was fun at some point. (touching his chest and not his face).
then suddenly his hair went up and he growled at me and took some distance.

i backed only one step and went down to his level. then thought of picking up the game but didnt know if that was the right thing to do so came and wrote this .

Guys something i m curious about:
i ve been reading other threads and i ve been seeing that most body language usually is a tucked tail for fear aggression.
karly doesnt have a tucked tail; his tail gets up and rigid whenever he growls.
but on the other hand, he gets far away from me as if he s running away. when i correct him or keep on approaching him, he keeps on growling but if i force a sit or a down, she shakes like a leaf... i m not getting which one it is. handler aggression or fear. any suggestions?

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

I m just curious to see if he'll approach of his own accord if you aren't standing up.

no way. if there isnt a treat, he wont. and if i force it by getting close to him he growls.

btw, my body language is getting cautious. when i approach him i stick my hand out while tucked in and i approach side ways as i do with any strange dog. am i doing this right?

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

Yikes, you didn't mention the prong collar before.
They are an awesome tool in the hands of someone that knows how to use them. Does your sister have experience with them?

Wendy, my sister doesnt know anything about dog training. i m sure this is it.

 Quote: Michel Karsouny

i tried to touch him as we were playing and it was fun at some point. (touching his chest and not his face).
then suddenly his hair went up and he growled at me and took some distance.

i m starting to think that i should stop playing much earlier, while he s in high spirits. should keep touch at a bare minimum and try to see where his limits are and push them bit by bit.

Guys something i m curious about:
i ve been reading other threads and i ve been seeing that most body language usually is a tucked tail for fear aggression.
karly doesnt have a tucked tail; his tail gets up and rigid whenever he growls.
but on the other hand, he gets far away from me as if he s running away. when i correct him or keep on approaching him, he keeps on growling but if i force a sit or a down, she shakes like a leaf... i m not getting which one it is. handler aggression or fear. any suggestions?

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

I m just curious to see if he'll approach of his own accord if you aren't standing up.

no way. if there isnt a treat, he wont. and if i force it by getting close to him he growls.

btw, my body language is getting cautious. when i approach him i stick my hand out while tucked in and i approach side ways as i do with any strange dog. am i doing this right?

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

Yikes, you didn't mention the prong collar before.
They are an awesome tool in the hands of someone that knows how to use them. Does your sister have experience with them?

Wendy, my sister doesnt know anything about dog training. i m sure this is it.

 Quote: Michel Karsouny

i tried to touch him as we were playing and it was fun at some point. (touching his chest and not his face).
then suddenly his hair went up and he growled at me and took some distance.

i m starting to think that i should stop playing much earlier, while he s in high spirits. should keep touch at a bare minimum and try to see where his limits are and push them bit by bit.


Edited by Michel Karsouny (03/14/2012 10:19 AM)
Edit reason: delete as it s been submitted twice