I don't know Andrew, could be a little too soon to wean them off the upright finger. That came a little too close to being 5 dogs just doing whatever they want.

 Quote: steve strom

I don't know Andrew, could be a little too soon to wean them off the upright finger. That came a little too close to being 5 dogs just doing whatever they want.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: steve strom

I don't know Andrew, could be a little too soon to wean them off the upright finger. That came a little too close to being 5 dogs just doing whatever they want.

BTW, the laugh emoticons were strictly about Steve's writing style.... not his message. I should not have posted; I hadn't even looked at all the clips.

Now I have, and I agree about seeing much more dogs-running-the-show than I want to see (with the visitor dogs).

It's not the job of my dogs to dominate visiting dogs.

My own dogs wouldn't be allowed to visit there, after I watched all the clips.

I like the pack clips. Not so much the clips where the pack is allowed to bully a visitor dog who is somewhere she doesn't want to be.

JMO.

 Quote: steve strom

I don't know Andrew, could be a little too soon to wean them off the upright finger. That came a little too close to being 5 dogs just doing whatever they want.

LOL well if you watch closely you will note that it is me filming and what you don't get to see clearly are the movements by me torwards the dog/dogs allowing them to get to a point of almost no apparent return then bringing the dogs to a point of control is the exercise; just like this video when IT IS 5 dogs doing pretty much as they want then bringing down to having all under control, note the bordeaux walks through the door towards the end of the video and the others only go through after me CALMLY.Oh the bordeaux isn't mine http://youtu.be/KQh63BXxSW8

again me filming note the forwards movements.Obviously not to be tried by someone who dosen't have 100% confidence in being able to control their dogs

One should never underestimate this breed no matter how much you are a pack leader and can control with love and the work put in with obedience, there is something in their psyche that they keep hidden away, are sly and devious and calculating. This comes out when they get overwhelming urge to do something they absolutely know you dont want them to do, they even understand they will be punished when you discover what they did, but can justify to themselves as you were not paying attention to detail.

Above is a quote from someone who hss been in the same breed as me for over 30 years and unfortunately many others high up or well known within the breed have similar opinions.I do not agree with this persons coments and try and lead by example and present my opinions. Unfortunately many who have this breed treat tehm like some sort of trophy or a musem exhibit which is sad for the dogs who are not reared and trained properly so they can have happier more fullfilledf lives.When people such as the person above make such comments it is sometimes frustrating.Though I dont show my dogs I do go to some shows and watch as the owners literally get dragged round the show rings by their dogs and its not the owners I feel sorry for its the dogs.I have nothing against dogs being shown but at lest the so called breed experts could a lest set an example and not have their dogs pulling on leashes.

In reviewing the videos again and watching all of them, and discussing the same with another member via PMs, I see a Bordeaux that is being harassed by the Neos.

"Allowing them to get to a point of almost no return" just to show your control is a bit cruel/sick in my books.
The horses that "shouldn't be in the field".
I got the impression that you weren't familiar with these horses. The dogs are to big and to slow to get out of the way if the horses decided to kick the crap out of them. A horse can do a tremendous amount of damage to any but a very quick dog with a lot of horse sense if it's so inclined.

The more videos I watch the less impressed I am about how the dogs are being "raised".

I see more ego then leadership here.

I am sorry you have done a 180 in regards to your opinion.However with regard to the video with the bordeanx let me say that the bordeaux was brought to me by her owner as she did not want to put her into kennels while she went on holiday and had no relations prepared to look after the dog due to its hyper behaviour.My dogs had met the bordeaux while all dogs were leashed on many occaisions previously while dogs were being exercised and there were no signs of agression from any of the dogs.You will note that as frenzied as the video comes accross there was no growling,no blood and NO BITING.I had no concern about my dogs actually attacking and if you look at the body language of the bordeaux you will note there is no sign of fear coming from her she saw it as a game her tail never went between her legs at anytime.Because I was going to have the bordeaux stay for a week I chose to do things the way you see in the video.However perhaps I was wrong and may be you can educate me as to why tou consider it to be "cruel/sick" I am alwys happy to listen and learn and improve the way I do things.The video below was taken the next day and you will see that she futs in very well into my pack of neos.

http://youtu.be/A5jK86ZDHZg

and in my opinion the way things turned out meant I didnt have to play musical chairs with the dogs and were able to have them together without intense supervision for every second and I believe the bordeaux quickly learnt that I was the one in charge if not only for the fact that it witnessed the way the neos were controlled by me.But like I am happy to learn from any constructive points you can inpart.

With regards to the video with the horses I am in agreement with what you have to say.Every breed has its plus's and minus's and certainly the neos are quick on their feet and in fact I am scared of horses myself which why I recorded from a distance so as not to spook the horses or the dogs by them picking up on my fears and anxiety and was relieved that nothing bad happened to the dogs or the horses.I will repaet the horses were not supposed to be there and there was no way of knowing until I turned the corner and as things seemed initially ok I tried not to panick and start yelling and loose it in case I escalated the situation.My dogs have a good recall in most situations see the video below,(no cows,dogs, or people were harmed in the making of the video lol)Regarding you comment about my egoe you are entitled to your opinion but those that really know me will definately not agree.

http://youtu.be/yWObAwJo_fU

To me its never about the person if I havent met them but always about their dogs you can see.

http://youtu.be/l0TlKsG93f8

http://youtu.be/rWyujr1nsCQ

How many packs of 4 neos do you know that will allow other dogs into thier own home so willingly it doesn't just happen ;I might be wrong but I was hoping it is because they consider it my house before it is theirs and that indicated leadership or am am I wrong in this assumption?

if you look at the body language of the bordeaux you will note there is no sign of fear coming from her she saw it as a game her tail never went between her legs at anytime.

Andrew;

Though her tail was not tucked, there are some signs of submission that you are overlooking. One way that dogs establish dominance is by "teeing up" or standing over another dog. Every time the Bordeaux attempts to evade the Neos, she comes over to you. That is her way of saying "I need help...please protect me." IMHO, the reason there was no escalation is that THE BORDEAUX AVOIDED IT BY SUBMITTING EVERY TIME. Though you didn't allow physical harm to the visitor, you seem oblivious to the fact that your pack is bullying her, and she wants nothing more than to escape.

I'm sure that everything did go smoothly subsequent to this initial filming. The Bordeaux quickly learned what she had to do to survive, that she was on her own, and that she could expect no help from the human pack leader. Dogs aren't dumb.

In the form of constructive criticism, you can learn alot from the body language of your visiting dogs. All three look to the videographer (you, the human pack leader) for leadership and direction, not your pack of canine peers. Even the little white puppy, who is not dominated or intimidated by your pack, looks directly at YOU when there is a pause and he's not sure what's going on.

Do you see the signs of avoidance and submission in Misty, the tiny black-and-white bull terrier in your first video? The folded ears, the tucked tail, the look of uncertainty in her eyes as she tries to creep closer to you for protection?

Your pack is fairly well behaved and they interact with each other very well, but you seem to be in denial about some aspects of their discipline. Do you notice all of the refusals in your OB sessions? I ask this because I see no corrections or do-overs; just repeated requests from you (almost like asking for compliance).

Most of the posters on this forum that have large packs, from what I've seen, talk about being the human pack leader, about dogs not being allowed to enforce rank or make corrections.

True enough, your pack sees you as the leader, but you seem to overlook their bad behavior at times, and you allow your visitors to suffer because of this. I sometimes have the same problem with my single, hyper, alpha dog. However, I have learned to pay attention, correct the situation, make amends to any I have offended, and remove one or all dogs to prevent further occurrences.

I hope this comes across as constructive. You have beautiful dogs that get along very well as a pack. They would be even better with a little more guidance in some of these situations, and a little more OB. In any event, this is all just MY opinion.

From what I see Andrew, you think you have some great control, but you really don't and its going to show at the absolute worst time.